Discussion:
Is the Raspberry Pi real at that price?
(too old to reply)
Don McKenzie
2012-03-02 19:32:18 UTC
Permalink
Is the Raspberry Pi real at that price?

http://www.raspberrypi.org/
http://twitter.com/#!/raspberry_pi

I can't help but think when you sell 10K pieces of an item at bargain basement prices, (and in a single day), and in
advance of having the products, that there may be something very wrong.

They have entered into licensed manufacture partnerships with two British companies, Premier Farnell and RS Components.
That means there has to be a dealer margin. If you can retail it at $25, then how much did it cost wholesale?

I may be barking up the wrong tree, but am I one of the few sensing something may be very wrong with this deal?

Have a look at what Tsvetan from Olimex said in a forum thread about it here:
http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4748&PN=1

Anyone have insider information that what I am saying is completely off the mark?
Comments?

Of course, If I am off the mark, this will be more free advertising for them. :-)


Cheers Don...

========================
--
Don McKenzie

Dontronics: http://www.dontronics-shop.com/

DuinoMite the PIC32 $35 Basic Computer-MicroController
http://www.dontronics-shop.com/the-maximite-computer.html
Just add a VGA monitor or TV, and PS2 Keyboard.
Arduino Shield, Programmed in Basic, or C.
petrus bitbyter
2012-03-02 20:04:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don McKenzie
Is the Raspberry Pi real at that price?
http://www.raspberrypi.org/
http://twitter.com/#!/raspberry_pi
I can't help but think when you sell 10K pieces of an item at bargain
basement prices, (and in a single day), and in advance of having the
products, that there may be something very wrong.
They have entered into licensed manufacture partnerships with two British
companies, Premier Farnell and RS Components.
That means there has to be a dealer margin. If you can retail it at $25,
then how much did it cost wholesale?
I may be barking up the wrong tree, but am I one of the few sensing
something may be very wrong with this deal?
http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4748&PN=1
Anyone have insider information that what I am saying is completely off the mark?
Comments?
Of course, If I am off the mark, this will be more free advertising for them. :-)
Cheers Don...
========================
--
Don McKenzie
Dontronics: http://www.dontronics-shop.com/
DuinoMite the PIC32 $35 Basic Computer-MicroController
http://www.dontronics-shop.com/the-maximite-computer.html
Just add a VGA monitor or TV, and PS2 Keyboard.
Arduino Shield, Programmed in Basic, or C.
The current version is $35,-. The $25,- version has been announced however.

petrus bitbyter
TTman
2012-03-02 20:05:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don McKenzie
Is the Raspberry Pi real at that price?
http://www.raspberrypi.org/
http://twitter.com/#!/raspberry_pi
I can't help but think when you sell 10K pieces of an item at bargain
basement prices, (and in a single day), and in advance of having the
products, that there may be something very wrong.
They have entered into licensed manufacture partnerships with two British
companies, Premier Farnell and RS Components.
That means there has to be a dealer margin. If you can retail it at $25,
then how much did it cost wholesale?
I may be barking up the wrong tree, but am I one of the few sensing
something may be very wrong with this deal?
http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4748&PN=1
Anyone have insider information that what I am saying is completely off the mark?
Comments?
Of course, If I am off the mark, this will be more free advertising for them. :-)
Cheers Don...
========================
I see it as a cunning plan to wipe out M/soft and all those ancient PCs...
petrus bitbyter
2012-03-02 20:16:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by TTman
Post by Don McKenzie
Is the Raspberry Pi real at that price?
http://www.raspberrypi.org/
http://twitter.com/#!/raspberry_pi
I can't help but think when you sell 10K pieces of an item at bargain
basement prices, (and in a single day), and in advance of having the
products, that there may be something very wrong.
They have entered into licensed manufacture partnerships with two British
companies, Premier Farnell and RS Components.
That means there has to be a dealer margin. If you can retail it at $25,
then how much did it cost wholesale?
I may be barking up the wrong tree, but am I one of the few sensing
something may be very wrong with this deal?
http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4748&PN=1
Anyone have insider information that what I am saying is completely off the mark?
Comments?
Of course, If I am off the mark, this will be more free advertising for them. :-)
Cheers Don...
========================
I see it as a cunning plan to wipe out M/soft and all those ancient PCs...
It certainly attacks some monopolistic behavior of both processor en
software giants. As it will not do Windows, it may even become a nail in the
MS-coffin. But the design is too light for serious processing power. I
merely expect it to become a component more or less like the microprocessor
started.

petrus bitbyter
Joel Koltner
2012-03-02 20:44:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by petrus bitbyter
It certainly attacks some monopolistic behavior of both processor en
software giants. As it will not do Windows, it may even become a nail in the
MS-coffin.
I kinda doubt it -- Microsoft Windows 8 will run on ARM. Maybe not the
particular one on the Raspberry Pi, but certainly on plenty of other
inexpensive, similar chips.
Post by petrus bitbyter
But the design is too light for serious processing power. I
merely expect it to become a component more or less like the microprocessor
started.
Right -- by the time you turn it into a "real PC" (display, hard drive,
keyboard, touchpad, battery, case) and add some profit margins, I think
you're largely back to at least the $250-$350 "cheap laptop" that are
already quite common.

The cool thing about the Raspberry Pi is that it's quite hackable and
that it can be cheap by virtue of the fact that most everyone already
has a spare keyboard/mouse sitting around, can use some LCD they already
have, etc.

---Joel
rickman
2012-03-02 21:59:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by petrus bitbyter
It certainly attacks some monopolistic behavior of both processor en
software giants. As it will not do Windows, it may even become a nail in the
MS-coffin.
I kinda doubt it -- Microsoft Windows 8 will run on ARM.  Maybe not the
particular one on the Raspberry Pi, but certainly on plenty of other
inexpensive, similar chips.
Post by petrus bitbyter
But the design is too light for serious processing power. I
merely expect it to become a component more or less like the microprocessor
started.
Right -- by the time you turn it into a "real PC" (display, hard drive,
keyboard, touchpad, battery, case) and add some profit margins, I think
you're largely back to at least the $250-$350 "cheap laptop" that are
already quite common.
The cool thing about the Raspberry Pi is that it's quite hackable and
that it can be cheap by virtue of the fact that most everyone already
has a spare keyboard/mouse sitting around, can use some LCD they already
have, etc.
---Joel
Now you get it! The LCD as you call it is your TV, and who doesn't
have a keyboard and mouse left over from their Pentium days... opps,
they still market the Pentium in the low end machines. As to the hard
drive, I've got three of them in my pocket and keep a 16GB one in my
computer bag. I saw a 32GB one advertised for $27! I don't remember
if the rPi will take a full size SD or if you need a micro.

Rick
WoolyBully
2012-03-04 06:03:00 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 02 Mar 2012 12:44:21 -0800, Joel Koltner
Post by Joel Koltner
Post by petrus bitbyter
It certainly attacks some monopolistic behavior of both processor en
software giants. As it will not do Windows, it may even become a nail in the
MS-coffin.
I kinda doubt it -- Microsoft Windows 8 will run on ARM. Maybe not the
particular one on the Raspberry Pi, but certainly on plenty of other
inexpensive, similar chips.
Post by petrus bitbyter
But the design is too light for serious processing power. I
merely expect it to become a component more or less like the microprocessor
started.
Right -- by the time you turn it into a "real PC" (display, hard drive,
keyboard, touchpad, battery, case) and add some profit margins, I think
you're largely back to at least the $250-$350 "cheap laptop" that are
already quite common.
The cool thing about the Raspberry Pi is that it's quite hackable and
that it can be cheap by virtue of the fact that most everyone already
has a spare keyboard/mouse sitting around, can use some LCD they already
have, etc.
---Joel
Show me where your "cheap laptop" (or any laptop practically) has gpio
header or a readily available jtag header.
Joel Koltner
2012-03-05 17:56:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by WoolyBully
Show me where your "cheap laptop" (or any laptop practically) has gpio
header or a readily available jtag header.
That's why I said the "cool thing about hte Raspberry Pi is that it's
quite hackable."

On a standard laptop, though, it's no problem to find cheap
USB-connected GPIO cards if you like.

Debugging tools on a PC are good enough that you don't really need a
JTAG connector -- even for Kernel debugging, you just use a second PC
connected via an Ethernet or serial port link.

---Joel
Dave Platt
2012-03-02 21:38:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by petrus bitbyter
It certainly attacks some monopolistic behavior of both processor en
software giants. As it will not do Windows, it may even become a nail in the
MS-coffin. But the design is too light for serious processing power. I
merely expect it to become a component more or less like the microprocessor
started.
As I understand it, the primary intent is to get inexpensive,
programmable devices into the hands of lots of kids, as a learning
tool and as an "enabling technology". So, yeah, it and simiar devices
are probably being viewed as components and building blocks for all
sorts of products, rather than as direct PC replacements.
--
Dave Platt <***@radagast.org> AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!
j***@gmail.com
2012-03-02 20:17:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don McKenzie
Is the Raspberry Pi real at that price?
They have entered into licensed manufacture partnerships with two British companies, Premier Farnell and RS Components.
That means there has to be a dealer margin. If you can retail it at $25, then how much did it cost wholesale?
I may be barking up the wrong tree, but am I one of the few sensing something may be very wrong with this deal?
Well, you have the "there has to be a dealer margin" bit wrong,
RS/Farnell are selling for more than $35, so their margin goes on top.

The product is real, and the idea is good, the only blind-spot is a closed and single sourced chip - but others have/will do similar chips, so that will sort over time, even if it means a new PCB design.
-jg
rickman
2012-03-02 20:28:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@gmail.com
Post by Don McKenzie
Is the Raspberry Pi real at that price?
They have entered into licensed manufacture partnerships with two British companies, Premier Farnell and RS Components.
That means there has to be a dealer margin. If you can retail it at $25, then how much did it cost wholesale?
I may be barking up the wrong tree, but am I one of the few sensing something may be very wrong with this deal?
Well, you have the "there has to be a dealer margin" bit wrong,
RS/Farnell are selling for more than $35, so their margin goes on top.
The product is real, and the idea is good, the only blind-spot is a closed and single sourced chip - but others have/will do similar chips, so that will sort over time, even if it means a new PCB design.
-jg
What CPU chips aren't single sourced these days? As to "closed", I
understand that Broadcom is releasing an I/O specification handbook
leaving only the GPU as "closed" and that is true for many similar
devices.

I'm not sure how much difference the "closed" part will make. I think
most people use even open source tools as if they were closed source.
I'll never have a need or the ability to recompile Linux for any
platform. But that doesn't mean I won't use a Linux enabled smart
phone or tablet or even design something to work with one.

Rick
j***@gmail.com
2012-03-02 21:29:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by rickman
I'm not sure how much difference the "closed" part will make. I think
most people use even open source tools as if they were closed source.
I'll never have a need or the ability to recompile Linux for any
platform. But that doesn't mean I won't use a Linux enabled smart
phone or tablet or even design something to work with one.
Sure, but you are not shipping products pitched for open education.

You have to admit, trying to motivate people to learn, with only a subset of information (and that still vaporware?) is rather self-defeating.

Will a manual sub-set be enough, when other devices have more information ?
Time will tell.
rickman
2012-03-02 22:03:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@gmail.com
I'm not sure how much difference the "closed" part will make.  I think
most people use even open source tools as if they were closed source.
I'll never have a need or the ability to recompile Linux for any
platform.  But that doesn't mean I won't use a Linux enabled smart
phone or tablet or even design something to work with one.
Sure, but you are not shipping products pitched for open education.
You have to admit, trying to motivate people to learn, with only a subset of information (and that still vaporware?) is rather self-defeating.
Will a manual sub-set be enough, when other devices have more information ?
Time will tell.
Are you being serious? Do you really think the high school kids are
going to want to program the GPU?

That is the point. The part they don't want to talk about is the last
part you would want to know about and likely couldn't do much with if
you had the docs. When you say "other devices", what other devices
disclose full info on their GPUs? I've been told this aspect is
pretty common. Or maybe they were saying the drivers for the GPUs are
not open source. Is this wrong?

Rick
j***@gmail.com
2012-03-03 02:09:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by rickman
Are you being serious?
Yes.
Post by rickman
Do you really think the high school kids are going to want to program the GPU?
Why not ? Some students will want to do exactly that.
This is resource that is sitting on their desk, and they have paid for it.
Why limit this to High School kids ?

Note the info they have released, not only excludes the GPU, but is very thin on any display interface options.

-jg
rickman
2012-03-03 05:22:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@gmail.com
Post by rickman
Are you being serious?
Yes.
Post by rickman
Do you really think the high school kids are going to want to program the GPU?
Why not ? Some students will want to do exactly that.
This is resource that is sitting on their desk, and they have paid for it.
Why limit this to High School kids ?
Note the info they have released, not only excludes the GPU, but is very thin on any display interface options.
-jg
Why not? That's your argument for why the rPi won't be a good
teaching tool?

I think you grossly overstate the significance of this aspect of the
board.

Rick
Boo
2012-03-03 11:14:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by rickman
Are you being serious? Do you really think the high school kids are
going to want to program the GPU?
I've got to say that ISTM any bright kid is going to head straight for the GPU
as his/her first destination.

Boo
A***@kapsi.spam.stop.fi.invalid
2012-03-03 11:55:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Boo
Post by rickman
Are you being serious? Do you really think the high school kids are
going to want to program the GPU?
I've got to say that ISTM any bright kid is going to head straight for the GPU
as his/her first destination.
If you don't know how to program, the documentation for a modern GPU isn't
going to do you any good anyway, and it's quite enough to learn how to get
stuff on screen using SDL or something similar. There's some way from that
to writing a shader compiler.

If a kid starts taking an interest in banging on hardware there's no
shortage of dirt-cheap microcontroller boards to get them going in that
direction.

-a
Boo
2012-03-03 12:55:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by A***@kapsi.spam.stop.fi.invalid
If a kid starts taking an interest in banging on hardware there's no
shortage of dirt-cheap microcontroller boards to get them going in that
direction.
Which is true but does somewhat ignore the fact that the entire premise of the
RP is to support such interest.

Boo2
A***@kapsi.spam.stop.fi.invalid
2012-03-03 13:50:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Boo
Post by A***@kapsi.spam.stop.fi.invalid
If a kid starts taking an interest in banging on hardware there's no
shortage of dirt-cheap microcontroller boards to get them going in that
direction.
Which is true but does somewhat ignore the fact that the entire premise of the
RP is to support such interest.
Via expansion boards, not of the RP itself.

-a
Boo
2012-03-03 18:59:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by A***@kapsi.spam.stop.fi.invalid
Post by Boo
Post by A***@kapsi.spam.stop.fi.invalid
If a kid starts taking an interest in banging on hardware there's no
shortage of dirt-cheap microcontroller boards to get them going in that
direction.
Which is true but does somewhat ignore the fact that the entire premise of the
RP is to support such interest.
Via expansion boards, not of the RP itself.
Whatever. Goodbye.

Boo2
David Brown
2012-03-03 11:39:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by rickman
Post by j***@gmail.com
Post by Don McKenzie
Is the Raspberry Pi real at that price?
They have entered into licensed manufacture partnerships with two
British companies, Premier Farnell and RS Components. That means
there has to be a dealer margin. If you can retail it at $25,
then how much did it cost wholesale?
I may be barking up the wrong tree, but am I one of the few
sensing something may be very wrong with this deal?
Well, you have the "there has to be a dealer margin" bit wrong,
RS/Farnell are selling for more than $35, so their margin goes on top.
The product is real, and the idea is good, the only blind-spot is a
closed and single sourced chip - but others have/will do similar
chips, so that will sort over time, even if it means a new PCB
design. -jg
As I understand it, they are getting a good deal on Broadcom chips
because one of the main masterminds behind the Pi works high up in
Broadcom. It's not that they are getting the chips sub-cost -
apparently Broadcom is happy to supply them indefinitely at the price
they pay. It's just that normally Broadcom wouldn't even bother
replying to an inquiry about only 10K pieces.

I believe Broadcom see the whole thing as a bit of advertisement - and I
hope this means that they will use it towards making parts available in
smaller quantities to smaller developers.
Post by rickman
What CPU chips aren't single sourced these days? As to "closed", I
understand that Broadcom is releasing an I/O specification handbook
leaving only the GPU as "closed" and that is true for many similar
devices.
I'm not sure how much difference the "closed" part will make. I
think most people use even open source tools as if they were closed
source. I'll never have a need or the ability to recompile Linux for
any platform. But that doesn't mean I won't use a Linux enabled
smart phone or tablet or even design something to work with one.
There is a big difference - /you/ may not bother with re-compiling
Linux, but other people do. Being open means that there is already a
wide range of software, and multiple Linux distributions, available for
the Pi. It means that some student somewhere can hack xmbc so that you
get an advanced media player on your Pi for free - rather than having to
wait for some commercial company to develop one and sell you it at a
high price. You are right that most people use their software
pre-compiled, and don't immediately benefit from having access to the
source code. But they /do/ benefit greatly from others having access to
the source code.
rickman
2012-03-03 17:08:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Brown
There is a big difference - /you/ may not bother with re-compiling
Linux, but other people do. Being open means that there is already a
wide range of software, and multiple Linux distributions, available for
the Pi. It means that some student somewhere can hack xmbc so that you
get an advanced media player on your Pi for free - rather than having to
wait for some commercial company to develop one and sell you it at a
high price. You are right that most people use their software
pre-compiled, and don't immediately benefit from having access to the
source code. But they /do/ benefit greatly from others having access to
the source code.
I reject the argument that you will not be able to provide any
functionality because parts of the SOC hardware are not open. They
provide drivers for them, they just don't release the source for the
drivers. I don't get source for Windows either and yet I can write
all the code I want for my app.

This has been bashed about in the rPi and other forums quite a bit and
no one has been able to show significant limitations that using a
closed source GPU driver provides.

I doubt I will bother with the rPi. I'm more of a hardware guy and
the rPi doesn't provide much opportunity for that compared to the
BeagleBone. They don't recommend that the BB be used for "commercial"
designs, but it is much better suited than the rPi, mostly for
mechanical reasons. How the deuce do you mount the rPi in a box? No
mounting holes, all edges have components overhanging... I guess you
could use hot glue!

Rick
Mel Wilson
2012-03-03 17:54:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by rickman
I doubt I will bother with the rPi. I'm more of a hardware guy and
the rPi doesn't provide much opportunity for that compared to the
BeagleBone. They don't recommend that the BB be used for "commercial"
designs, but it is much better suited than the rPi, mostly for
mechanical reasons. How the deuce do you mount the rPi in a box? No
mounting holes, all edges have components overhanging... I guess you
could use hot glue!
3-D printer fans -- this is their bread and butter. At least one is going
to wind up clamping the board between two halves of a clamshell case, with a
post or two to keep it from sliding around.

As a single system, BeagleBone is a more convenient package. I see the rPi
price point enabling scaling like nothing else. A couple of kids with part-
time jobs or (more likely) doting grandparents could put together a 20-host
Bluetooth mesh with money they already have.


Mel.
Chris Baird
2012-03-04 08:55:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by rickman
[..] You are right that most people use their software pre-compiled,
and don't immediately benefit from having access to the source code.
But they /do/ benefit greatly from others having access to the source
code.
I reject the argument that you will not be able to provide any
functionality because parts of the SOC hardware are not open. They
provide drivers for them, they just don't release the source for the
drivers.
Binary Blobs are to be avoided at all costs. In my experience they've
always fucked me over-- from the OpenMoko's GLAMO issues, to (Free)NAS
boxes with flakey ethernet support that no amount of free software
hacking can solve.

There's already word out of the SD card reading support in the RPi's
GPU binary blob being flakey. The only way that'll be fixed is if
Broadcom can now +generously+ spare the time and money for the benefit
of the low-profitability RPi foundation to fix it. If the GPU guts
were open, RPi users could fix it themselves, but as it is, they're
SOL waiting on Broadcom to take care of it (..and then pass it on
down. "What? For FREE?")

Another something that's came up is the GPU blob's control of video
decoding, specifically supporting Hi10P video-- which is on the way to
becoming The Standard encoding profile (10-bit colour, better
compression). Broadcom & RPi devs have said that it _won't_ be
supported _ever_ in the RPi. I would say it's for reasons similar as
in my previous paragraph-- there's no direct profit for Broadcom in
adding such support in last year's chips.

There's been a long history of Binary Blobs fucking-over FOSS projects.
I do think RPi have been naive..
--
Chris
David Brown
2012-03-04 10:53:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Baird
Post by rickman
[..] You are right that most people use their software pre-compiled,
and don't immediately benefit from having access to the source code.
But they /do/ benefit greatly from others having access to the source
code.
I reject the argument that you will not be able to provide any
functionality because parts of the SOC hardware are not open. They
provide drivers for them, they just don't release the source for the
drivers.
Binary Blobs are to be avoided at all costs. In my experience they've
always fucked me over-- from the OpenMoko's GLAMO issues, to (Free)NAS
boxes with flakey ethernet support that no amount of free software
hacking can solve.
There's already word out of the SD card reading support in the RPi's
GPU binary blob being flakey. The only way that'll be fixed is if
Broadcom can now +generously+ spare the time and money for the benefit
of the low-profitability RPi foundation to fix it. If the GPU guts
were open, RPi users could fix it themselves, but as it is, they're
SOL waiting on Broadcom to take care of it (..and then pass it on
down. "What? For FREE?")
Another something that's came up is the GPU blob's control of video
decoding, specifically supporting Hi10P video-- which is on the way to
becoming The Standard encoding profile (10-bit colour, better
compression). Broadcom& RPi devs have said that it _won't_ be
supported _ever_ in the RPi. I would say it's for reasons similar as
in my previous paragraph-- there's no direct profit for Broadcom in
adding such support in last year's chips.
There's been a long history of Binary Blobs fucking-over FOSS projects.
I do think RPi have been naive..
I don't thing Raspberry are being naive - they know full well the
disadvantages of using binary blobs. But they made a decision based on
a balance between functionality and price. There is no doubt that they
would prefer documentation for the GPU and other bits (such as the SD
card interface), so that they can write decent code. And I'm sure they
are putting as much pressure on Broadcom as they are able.

Binary blobs are to be avoided where possible, but not at all costs. In
many cases they are better than nothing, though arguably in other cases
they are worse than nothing. It is a balance that needs to be decided
case for case.
A***@kapsi.spam.stop.fi.invalid
2012-03-04 11:33:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Baird
There's been a long history of Binary Blobs fucking-over FOSS projects.
I do think RPi have been naive..
Name an SoC that provides accelerated 3D and video decoding without the need
for binary blobs. Having the documentation would certainly be better, but
as it is your options are to either use the blobs or not to have a product.

-a
rickman
2012-03-04 23:15:55 UTC
Permalink
[..] You are right that most people use their software pre-compiled,
and don't immediately benefit from having access to the source code.
But they /do/ benefit greatly from others having access to the source
code.
 > I reject the argument that you will not be able to provide any
 > functionality because parts of the SOC hardware are not open. They
 > provide drivers for them, they just don't release the source for the
 > drivers.
Binary Blobs are to be avoided at all costs. In my experience they've
always fucked me over-- from the OpenMoko's GLAMO issues, to (Free)NAS
boxes with flakey ethernet support that no amount of free software
hacking can solve.
There's already word out of the SD card reading support in the RPi's
GPU binary blob being flakey. The only way that'll be fixed is if
Broadcom can now +generously+ spare the time and money for the benefit
of the low-profitability RPi foundation to fix it. If the GPU guts
were open, RPi users could fix it themselves, but as it is, they're
SOL waiting on Broadcom to take care of it (..and then pass it on
down. "What? For FREE?")
Another something that's came up is the GPU blob's control of video
decoding, specifically supporting Hi10P video-- which is on the way to
becoming The Standard encoding profile (10-bit colour, better
compression). Broadcom & RPi devs have said that it _won't_ be
supported _ever_ in the RPi. I would say it's for reasons similar as
in my previous paragraph-- there's no direct profit for Broadcom in
adding such support in last year's chips.
There's been a long history of Binary Blobs fucking-over FOSS projects.
I do think RPi have been naive..
--
Chris
Chris,

You can argue this point until you are blue in the face. None of what
you are talking about will have any real impact on the sales or
utility of the rPi for its stated purpose. As a teaching tool I would
not expect it to be without some sort of trade offs. In this context,
I don't care about the issues of FOSS, this project is not about FOSS,
it is about the rPi which happens to make some use of FOSS. It does
not live an die by FOSS.

Whatever. This is getting very stale. Others, much more informed
than I (can't say about you) have discussed this to death in the rPi
forums.

Rick
Chris Baird
2012-03-05 09:14:13 UTC
Permalink
You can argue this point until you are blue in the face. None of what
you are talking about will have any real impact on the sales or
utility of the rPi for its stated purpose. As a teaching tool I would
not expect it to be without some sort of trade offs.
In this context, I don't care about the issues of FOSS, this project
is not about FOSS, it is about the rPi which happens to make some use
of FOSS. It does not live an die by FOSS.
That's also /exactly/ what was said back just before the OLPC project
tanked, after years of hyping-to and rallying-up the FOSS community to
get behind it...
--
Chris
rickman
2012-03-05 21:01:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Baird
You can argue this point until you are blue in the face. None of what
you are talking about will have any real impact on the sales or
utility of the rPi for its stated purpose. As a teaching tool I would
not expect it to be without some sort of trade offs.
In this context, I don't care about the issues of FOSS, this project
is not about FOSS, it is about the rPi which happens to make some use
of FOSS. It does not live an die by FOSS.
That's also /exactly/ what was said back just before the OLPC project
tanked, after years of hyping-to and rallying-up the FOSS community to
get behind it...
--
Chris
Didn't you see the word "die" in my statement? Do you really think
that the death of OLPC solely depended on FOSS? Yeah, right.

I suppose the financial crisis was because of not using FOSS in our
banking system too?

Rick
Grant Edwards
2012-03-02 20:35:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@gmail.com
The product is real, and the idea is good, the only blind-spot is a
closed and single sourced chip
Huh? Is it possible to do _anything_ that isn't completely trivial
without using a closed single-sourced chip? I've been doing
microcontroller based products for 30 years, and all the major ICs
have always been closed and single-sourced. There simply aren't any
open, multi-sourced chips with any significant functionality.
Post by j***@gmail.com
- but others have/will do similar chips, so that will sort over time,
even if it means a new PCB design.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! FROZEN ENTREES may
at be flung by members of
gmail.com opposing SWANSON SECTS ...
j***@gmail.com
2012-03-02 21:23:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Edwards
I've been doing
microcontroller based products for 30 years, and all the major ICs
have always been closed and single-sourced.
Wow, you managed all that, without a single device data sheet ?!

You rather missed the point, which is a complete LACK of information.
That is what closed means.

I am sure you had information on ALL those parts you had to use, and heck, probably even an errata sheet to two... ?
Grant Edwards
2012-03-02 22:03:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@gmail.com
Post by Grant Edwards
I've been doing
microcontroller based products for 30 years, and all the major ICs
have always been closed and single-sourced.
Wow, you managed all that, without a single device data sheet ?!
You rather missed the point, which is a complete LACK of information.
That is what closed means.
You're right. I completely misunderstood what you meant by the word
"closed". I understood it to mean you didn't have access to the
"source" for the part (masks, Verilog source, schematics, etc.).
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! This PORCUPINE knows
at his ZIPCODE ... And he has
gmail.com "VISA"!!
rickman
2012-03-02 22:05:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@gmail.com
 I've been doing
microcontroller based products for 30 years, and all the major ICs
have always been closed and single-sourced.
Wow, you managed all that, without a single device data sheet ?!
You rather missed the point, which is a complete LACK of information.
That is what closed means.
I am sure you had information on ALL those parts you had to use, and heck, probably even an errata sheet to two... ?
That is the misinformation. Broadcom IS providing info on the
peripheral I/O which is what you want from them. The ARM is the same
as everyone else's ARM.... because it's an ARM.

Don't blow the issue out of proportion. I bet the rPi gets a lot of
use and a lot of cool stuff will be developed with it just because it
is so cheap and everything other than the GPU is open.

Rick
MK
2012-03-03 11:01:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by rickman
Post by j***@gmail.com
Post by Grant Edwards
I've been doing
microcontroller based products for 30 years, and all the major ICs
have always been closed and single-sourced.
Wow, you managed all that, without a single device data sheet ?!
You rather missed the point, which is a complete LACK of information.
That is what closed means.
I am sure you had information on ALL those parts you had to use, and heck, probably even an errata sheet to two... ?
That is the misinformation. Broadcom IS providing info on the
peripheral I/O which is what you want from them. The ARM is the same
as everyone else's ARM.... because it's an ARM.
Don't blow the issue out of proportion. I bet the rPi gets a lot of
use and a lot of cool stuff will be developed with it just because it
is so cheap and everything other than the GPU is open.
Rick
hello Rick,

I took a quick look at the "documentation" from Broadcom and it was a
joke. 120 pages for a device of that complexity ! It's not just the GPU
that is not described there was nothing about Ethernet. Things may
change but I doubt it - Broadcom have a weird attitude to small customers.

This thing is a very poor choice for a learning platform in the sense it
has been touted (ie as a modern take on the ZX Spectrum etc.). All the
talk I hear about it is as a Linux platform or a media centre etc.

I can't see Farnell and RS saving its bacon either - if (as it seems)
the RP people can't manage production then they needed a manufacturing
partner but Farnell and RS are distributors with no mass production
experience.

Any one remember the Nascom 2 computer .........


Michael Kellett
David Brown
2012-03-03 11:47:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by MK
Post by j***@gmail.com
Post by Grant Edwards
I've been doing
microcontroller based products for 30 years, and all the major ICs
have always been closed and single-sourced.
Wow, you managed all that, without a single device data sheet ?!
You rather missed the point, which is a complete LACK of information.
That is what closed means.
I am sure you had information on ALL those parts you had to use, and
heck, probably even an errata sheet to two... ?
That is the misinformation. Broadcom IS providing info on the
peripheral I/O which is what you want from them. The ARM is the same
as everyone else's ARM.... because it's an ARM.
Don't blow the issue out of proportion. I bet the rPi gets a lot of
use and a lot of cool stuff will be developed with it just because it
is so cheap and everything other than the GPU is open.
Rick
hello Rick,
I took a quick look at the "documentation" from Broadcom and it was a
joke. 120 pages for a device of that complexity ! It's not just the GPU
that is not described there was nothing about Ethernet. Things may
change but I doubt it - Broadcom have a weird attitude to small customers.
This thing is a very poor choice for a learning platform in the sense it
has been touted (ie as a modern take on the ZX Spectrum etc.). All the
talk I hear about it is as a Linux platform or a media centre etc.
I can't see Farnell and RS saving its bacon either - if (as it seems)
the RP people can't manage production then they needed a manufacturing
partner but Farnell and RS are distributors with no mass production
experience.
Farnell and RS are not manufacturing partners - they are a way to handle
sales and distribution. As Raspberry began to realise the level of
demand for these boards, they realised they could not distribute them
themselves - at least not at this stage. So they got Farnell and RS to
help them. And the demand was so high it brought Farnell and RS's
websites to a standstill.

They don't need someone like Farnell and RS to help with manufacturing.
I don't know who is doing it at the moment - some company in the far
east, as they failed to find a more local company that could manage the
numbers within a short time.
Post by MK
Any one remember the Nascom 2 computer .........
Michael Kellett
A***@kapsi.spam.stop.fi.invalid
2012-03-03 12:05:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Brown
Farnell and RS are not manufacturing partners - they are a way to handle
sales and distribution.
From <http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/723>:
"For those of you just joining us, we have entered into licensed manufacture
partnerships with two British companies, Premier Farnell and RS Components.
They???ll be manufacturing and distributing the devices on our behalf, and
handling the distribution of our first batches as they arrive in the country."

-a
Mel Wilson
2012-03-03 12:31:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by MK
This thing is a very poor choice for a learning platform in the sense it
has been touted (ie as a modern take on the ZX Spectrum etc.). All the
talk I hear about it is as a Linux platform or a media centre etc.
Depends. If you talk to people like me, you hear about Linux platforms or
media centers. If you talk to people like this

<https://www.adafruit.com/blog/2012/02/25/adafruit-in-the-new-york-times-
wearable-electronics-are-making-a-statement-nytimes/>

I don't know what you'll hear.

Mel.
Don McKenzie
2012-03-02 21:29:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don McKenzie
Is the Raspberry Pi real at that price?
They have entered into licensed manufacture partnerships with two British companies, Premier Farnell and RS
Components. That means there has to be a dealer margin. If you can retail it at $25, then how much did it cost
wholesale?
I may be barking up the wrong tree, but am I one of the few sensing something may be very wrong with this deal?
Well, you have the "there has to be a dealer margin" bit wrong, RS/Farnell are selling for more than $35, so their
margin goes on top.
Thanks Jim, so the $35 price it is openly advertised at, is the wholesale price, not the retail price?
Who else advertises like that to the public?

http://au.element14.com/raspberry-pi/raspbrry-pcba/sbc-raspberry-pi-model-b/dp/2081185
I kept getting forced to the local AU site, however with local dollar conversion, the $38AUD retail becomes $40.77USD

So that is $5.77USD profit. A markup margin of 16.49%.

Perhaps someone can do the sums from a US site.

Cheers Don...

==============================
--
Don McKenzie

Dontronics: http://www.dontronics-shop.com/

DuinoMite the PIC32 $35 Basic Computer-MicroController
http://www.dontronics-shop.com/the-maximite-computer.html
Just add a VGA monitor or TV, and PS2 Keyboard.
Arduino Shield, Programmed in Basic, or C.
j***@gmail.com
2012-03-03 02:39:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don McKenzie
Thanks Jim, so the $35 price it is openly advertised at, is the wholesale price, not the retail price?
Who else advertises like that to the public?
It's a little loose, but hey, this project is in a state of flux.
The price is still what I'd call good. (but no, it is not $35)

I see this info now on their website :

["They’ll be manufacturing and distributing the devices on our behalf, and handling the distribution of our first batches as they arrive in the country. We continue to make a small profit from each Raspberry Pi sold, which we’ll be putting straight back into the charity."]

I wonder what that means, to their earlier claims/plans to publish the CAD files for Schematic & PCB ?
Chris Baird
2012-03-03 16:47:48 UTC
Permalink
Don> Thanks Jim, so the $35 price it is openly advertised at, is the
Don> wholesale price, not the retail price? Who else advertises like
Don> that to the public?

How about actually bothering to read the RPi website and finding out
what it's about? It's not Yet Another Garage Businessman effort.
--
Chris
Michael A. Terrell
2012-03-03 18:47:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Baird
Don> Thanks Jim, so the $35 price it is openly advertised at, is the
Don> wholesale price, not the retail price? Who else advertises like
Don> that to the public?
How about actually bothering to read the RPi website and finding out
what it's about? It's not Yet Another Garage Businessman effort.
All I found there was a message that the site was down, and to follow
them on Twitter. No thanks. I have an Arduino Mega 2560 and the TI
Launchpad to keep me busy for now. Both were under $35. The Launchpad
was $8 and change, delivered.
--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.
Don McKenzie
2012-03-03 18:54:05 UTC
Permalink
Don> Thanks Jim, so the $35 price it is openly advertised at, is the
Don> wholesale price, not the retail price? Who else advertises like
Don> that to the public?
How about actually bothering to read the RPi website and finding out
what it's about? It's not Yet Another Garage Businessman effort.
I did that Chris, and this is what it says about price:

How much will it cost?
The Model A will cost $25 and the Model B $35, plus local taxes.

==========================================

The text that you quoted of mine above, was brought about by another poster in a previous message, that suggested this
was the wholesale price, and the dealers would put their margin on top.

I suggested back to the poster that no one advertises at a wholesale price to the public. I also suggest you read the
message and quote me correctly including the text of the original poster, and please don't make up a version to suit
yourself.

I am not whining about the device, it looks good, but I am allowed to ask questions, or are questions banned these days.

Here is the feed back from potential Element14 customers:
http://www.element14.com/community/thread/17002?start=0&tstart=0

and from Raspberry Pi:
http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/723#comments

You will see that the comments on each group are almost the opposite.

Cheers Don...

========================
--
Don McKenzie

Dontronics: http://www.dontronics-shop.com/

DuinoMite the PIC32 $35 Basic Computer-MicroController
http://www.dontronics-shop.com/the-maximite-computer.html
Just add a VGA monitor or TV, and PS2 Keyboard.
Arduino Shield, Programmed in Basic, or C.
Chris Baird
2012-03-04 08:30:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Baird
How about actually bothering to read the RPi website and finding out
what it's about? It's not Yet Another Garage Businessman effort.
How much will it cost? The Model A will cost $25 and the Model B $35,
plus local taxes.
You missed the part about the RPi Foundation being a non-profit
educationally-motivated effort, hurr.

Which'll trash the rip-off fake-Arduino you're trying to flog in your
latest get-rich-from-home scheme. Go whinge elsewhere.
--
Chris
Don McKenzie
2012-03-04 13:06:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Baird
You missed the part about the RPi Foundation being a non-profit
educationally-motivated effort, hurr.
No I read that Chris.

The Raspberry Pi Foundation is a UK registered charity (Registration Number 1129409)

Who controls Rasperry Pi?
Who controls Rasperry Pi foundation?
Who controls the CPU chip manufacturer?

Answer: Broadcom

That is the way I read it Chris. Please tell me if I am wrong.

Cheers Don...

====================
--
Don McKenzie

Dontronics: http://www.dontronics-shop.com/

DuinoMite the PIC32 $35 Basic Computer-MicroController
http://www.dontronics-shop.com/the-maximite-computer.html
Just add a VGA monitor or TV, and PS2 Keyboard.
Arduino Shield, Programmed in Basic, or C.
notbob
2012-03-04 14:02:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don McKenzie
That is the way I read it Chris. Please tell me if I am wrong.
This week old article, straight from the horse's mouth, clears up a lot
of confusion:

http://tinyurl.com/7c8wrue

nb
--
Fight internet CENSORSHIP - Fight SOPA-PIPA
Contact your congressman and/or representative, now!
http://projects.propublica.org/sopa/
vi --the heart of evil!
Don McKenzie
2012-03-04 19:00:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by notbob
Post by Don McKenzie
That is the way I read it Chris. Please tell me if I am wrong.
This week old article, straight from the horse's mouth, clears up a lot
yes it does, thanks for the URL nb,

I just hope rPi is the real deal, and it bears fruit for everyone involved.
I guess all parties will simply have to wait.

Cheers Don...

====================
--
Don McKenzie

Dontronics: http://www.dontronics-shop.com/

DuinoMite the PIC32 $35 Basic Computer-MicroController
http://www.dontronics-shop.com/the-maximite-computer.html
Just add a VGA monitor or TV, and PS2 Keyboard.
Arduino Shield, Programmed in Basic, or C.
rickman
2012-03-04 23:30:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don McKenzie
Post by Chris Baird
You missed the part about the RPi Foundation being a non-profit
educationally-motivated effort, hurr.
No I read that Chris.
The Raspberry Pi Foundation is a UK registered charity (Registration Number 1129409)
Who controls Rasperry Pi?
Who controls Rasperry Pi foundation?
Who controls the CPU chip manufacturer?
Answer: Broadcom
That is the way I read it Chris. Please tell me if I am wrong.
Cheers Don...
====================
--
Don McKenzie
Dontronics:http://www.dontronics-shop.com/
DuinoMite the PIC32 $35 Basic Computer-MicroControllerhttp://www.dontronics-shop.com/the-maximite-computer.html
Just add a VGA monitor or TV, and PS2 Keyboard.
Arduino Shield, Programmed in Basic, or C.
Chris is starting to sound very troll like. I don't get his points at
all and I don't see a need for his rudeness. I'm glad you can keep
this discussion civil.

Rick
Jamie
2012-03-04 23:42:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by rickman
Post by Don McKenzie
Post by Chris Baird
You missed the part about the RPi Foundation being a non-profit
educationally-motivated effort, hurr.
No I read that Chris.
The Raspberry Pi Foundation is a UK registered charity (Registration Number 1129409)
Who controls Rasperry Pi?
Who controls Rasperry Pi foundation?
Who controls the CPU chip manufacturer?
Answer: Broadcom
That is the way I read it Chris. Please tell me if I am wrong.
Cheers Don...
====================
--
Don McKenzie
Dontronics:http://www.dontronics-shop.com/
DuinoMite the PIC32 $35 Basic Computer-MicroControllerhttp://www.dontronics-shop.com/the-maximite-computer.html
Just add a VGA monitor or TV, and PS2 Keyboard.
Arduino Shield, Programmed in Basic, or C.
Chris is starting to sound very troll like. I don't get his points at
all and I don't see a need for his rudeness. I'm glad you can keep
this discussion civil.
Rick
That aint nothing! spit!


:)


Jamie
Don McKenzie
2012-03-04 23:59:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by rickman
Chris is starting to sound very troll like. I don't get his points at
all and I don't see a need for his rudeness. I'm glad you can keep
this discussion civil.
Rick
Thanks for the support Rick,

The reason I started this thread was because of Tsvetan at Olimex, who was trying to purchase a unit at the the embedded
world Conference 2012 28.2. - 1.3.2012, Nuremberg, in Germany last week. Below are his comments from a forum thread:

======================
djuqa wrote:
And for those of you that haven't heard the news, they sold out within a couple hours.
======================
Tsvetan wrote:
I do not believe this, this is what is written on their web page:
=====================
djuqa wrote:
Although we are still waiting for units to arrive from China, you can start buying the Raspberry Pi today.
=====================
Tsvetan wrote:
so they never ran this 10K batch, and now you can pre-order from Farnell and RS-Components and wait 60 days, hoping that
they will finally manage to arrange the manufacturing.

it's pity as it all seems now to look like cheap advertising for Broadcom for their processor. (the man behind this
project - Mr. Raspberry Pi is working for Broadcom)

They said they will produce complete linux computer with HDMI for $25, but they obviously have no any manufacturing
background nor they every did production in any scale, and 10K unit production is not so easy as they think.
It was really funny to read on their forum how they intend to manufacture the boards in UK but the "import taxes" were
holding them off, to build just tester for such board which to load the linux image and do the functional test for
series of 10K pcs will cost about 200K GBP so they will not fit in their budged just to test the boards in UK.

$25 is the Arduino board price tag, releasing board with 256MB RAM and ARM on 700 Mhz at this price have no business
logic/background - this you can achieve for board with 8bit micro or you have to not include re-seller margin and to
work on really tight budged. I don't say this is not possible, there are Bit-tornet loaders on Deal Extreme for $30
which run linux but there the processor is smaller and with no HDMI, so if the chinese can't do it for $25 I don't see
how UK based company will arrange the production.

The board which came close to these specs is the BeagleBone for $89 which TI sells to selected developers at cost for $50-60

Raspberry PI so far just makes press releases and sold few boards for 1000 GBP each on e-bay, they had to release this
10K batch in December, January, February, end of February and now it looks like the earliest release date through
Farnell is April .. 1st

I really wanted to buy one at Embedded but had no chance.

To add on top of this the closed source code for the Broadcom processor, this board will have never mainstream linux
support like Beagle and other boards which are with completely open source drivers.

==========================

It worries me just a little that the rPi, the rPi foundation, and the rPi processor used, is all Broadcom.

Don...

============
--
Don McKenzie

Dontronics: http://www.dontronics-shop.com/

DuinoMite the PIC32 $35 Basic Computer-MicroController
http://www.dontronics-shop.com/the-maximite-computer.html
Just add a VGA monitor or TV, and PS2 Keyboard.
Arduino Shield, Programmed in Basic, or C.
Nico Coesel
2012-03-05 00:39:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don McKenzie
Post by rickman
Chris is starting to sound very troll like. I don't get his points at
all and I don't see a need for his rudeness. I'm glad you can keep
this discussion civil.
Rick
Thanks for the support Rick,
The reason I started this thread was because of Tsvetan at Olimex, who was trying to purchase a unit at the the embedded
work on really tight budged. I don't say this is not possible, there are Bit-tornet loaders on Deal Extreme for $30
which run linux but there the processor is smaller and with no HDMI, so if the chinese can't do it for $25 I don't see
how UK based company will arrange the production.
The board which came close to these specs is the BeagleBone for $89 which TI sells to selected developers at cost for $50-60
Raspberry PI so far just makes press releases and sold few boards for 1000 GBP each on e-bay, they had to release this
10K batch in December, January, February, end of February and now it looks like the earliest release date through
Farnell is April .. 1st
I really wanted to buy one at Embedded but had no chance.
To add on top of this the closed source code for the Broadcom processor, this board will have never mainstream linux
support like Beagle and other boards which are with completely open source drivers.
==========================
It worries me just a little that the rPi, the rPi foundation, and the rPi processor used, is all Broadcom.
Maybe its Broadcom's way to enter the industrial market. This market
is mostly served by TI and Freescale. They used to have expensive eval
kits. Since the Beagleboard caught on so well and got TI a lot of
business Freescale is also offering low cost development boards.
--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
***@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
--------------------------------------------------------------
A***@kapsi.spam.stop.fi.invalid
2012-03-05 01:05:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don McKenzie
The reason I started this thread was because of Tsvetan at Olimex, who
was trying to purchase a unit at the the embedded world Conference 2012
28.2. - 1.3.2012, Nuremberg, in Germany last week. Below are his comments
=====================
so they never ran this 10K batch, and now you can pre-order from Farnell
and RS-Components and wait 60 days, hoping that they will finally manage
to arrange the manufacturing.
The board first went to manufacturing in January(1). Component supply
problems meant it was delayed to the end of February(2). Rather than
handling it themselves, this first batch has been handed over to Farnell and
RS for distribution. Future production will also be handled by Farnell and
RS.
Post by Don McKenzie
it's pity as it all seems now to look like cheap advertising for Broadcom
for their processor. (the man behind this
project - Mr. Raspberry Pi is working for Broadcom)
So what? The principals behind the BeagleBoard work for TI.
Post by Don McKenzie
$25 is the Arduino board price tag, releasing board with 256MB RAM and
ARM on 700 Mhz at this price have no business logic/background - this you
can achieve for board with 8bit micro or you have to not include re-seller
margin and to work on really tight budged.
Both of these are correct. The price does not include a reseller margin
because there was not intended to be a reseller. Consequently the prices
reported in most regions are slightly higher than the ones set by the
Raspberry Foundation.
Post by Don McKenzie
I don't say this is not possible, there are Bit-tornet loaders on Deal
Extreme for $30 which run linux but there the processor is smaller and
with no HDMI, so if the chinese can't do it for $25 I don't see
how UK based company will arrange the production.
It should be noted that the $25 Model A board includes neither Ethernet nor
HDMI.
Post by Don McKenzie
The board which came close to these specs is the BeagleBone for $89 which
TI sells to selected developers at cost for $50-60
Some comments from a BeagleBoard community representative (also a TI
employee, shock horror):
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/beagleboard/ZoWx0hvUPmw/WgqVAkbu2pAJ>
Post by Don McKenzie
To add on top of this the closed source code for the Broadcom processor,
this board will have never mainstream linux support like Beagle and other
boards which are with completely open source drivers.
At least the 3D graphics for the BeagleBoards use a binary blob driver.
Post by Don McKenzie
It worries me just a little that the rPi, the rPi foundation, and the rPi
processor used, is all Broadcom.
Why? Also, Eben Upton is the only foundation trustee employed by Broadcom.

-a
(ps. Please fix your line width)

(1) <http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/509>
(2) <http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/615>
Don McKenzie
2012-03-05 03:10:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by A***@kapsi.spam.stop.fi.invalid
Post by Don McKenzie
$25 is the Arduino board price tag, releasing board with 256MB RAM and
ARM on 700 Mhz at this price have no business logic/background - this you
can achieve for board with 8bit micro or you have to not include re-seller
margin and to work on really tight budged.
Both of these are correct. The price does not include a reseller margin
because there was not intended to be a reseller. Consequently the prices
reported in most regions are slightly higher than the ones set by the
Raspberry Foundation.
Thanks for the feed back Anders.

I don't know if you have insider information, or if this is your take on it.

If the price quoted isn't the retail price, do you think it would be fair at this stage if Broadcom announced this, and
adjusted the price they are quoting, so that it reflects what the public is going to pay?

Or at least made mention of it being a wholesale price, not a retail price?
Post by A***@kapsi.spam.stop.fi.invalid
-a
(ps. Please fix your line width)
seems fine to me.

Cheers Don...

==========================
--
Don McKenzie

Dontronics: http://www.dontronics-shop.com/

DuinoMite the PIC32 $35 Basic Computer-MicroController
http://www.dontronics-shop.com/the-maximite-computer.html
Just add a VGA monitor or TV, and PS2 Keyboard.
Arduino Shield, Programmed in Basic, or C.
Grant Edwards
2012-03-05 03:33:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don McKenzie
Post by A***@kapsi.spam.stop.fi.invalid
Post by Don McKenzie
$25 is the Arduino board price tag, releasing board with 256MB RAM and
ARM on 700 Mhz at this price have no business logic/background - this you
can achieve for board with 8bit micro or you have to not include re-seller
margin and to work on really tight budged.
Both of these are correct. The price does not include a reseller margin
because there was not intended to be a reseller. Consequently the prices
reported in most regions are slightly higher than the ones set by the
Raspberry Foundation.
Thanks for the feed back Anders.
I don't know if you have insider information, or if this is your take on it.
If the price quoted isn't the retail price, do you think it would be fair at this stage if Broadcom announced this, and
adjusted the price they are quoting, so that it reflects what the public is going to pay?
Or at least made mention of it being a wholesale price, not a retail price?
Post by A***@kapsi.spam.stop.fi.invalid
-a
(ps. Please fix your line width)
seems fine to me.
I guess as long as your posts are intended only for yourself, that's
fine. If you want others to read them, then fix you line width. I
gave up about 1/4 of the way through your post because of the bad
formatting.
--
Grant.
Jan Panteltje
2012-03-05 11:30:13 UTC
Permalink
On a sunny day (Mon, 5 Mar 2012 03:33:41 +0000 (UTC)) it happened Grant
Post by Grant Edwards
Post by Don McKenzie
Post by A***@kapsi.spam.stop.fi.invalid
Post by Don McKenzie
$25 is the Arduino board price tag, releasing board with 256MB RAM and
ARM on 700 Mhz at this price have no business logic/background - this you
can achieve for board with 8bit micro or you have to not include re-seller
margin and to work on really tight budged.
Both of these are correct. The price does not include a reseller margin
because there was not intended to be a reseller. Consequently the prices
reported in most regions are slightly higher than the ones set by the
Raspberry Foundation.
Thanks for the feed back Anders.
I don't know if you have insider information, or if this is your take on it.
If the price quoted isn't the retail price, do you think it would be fair at this stage if Broadcom announced this, and
adjusted the price they are quoting, so that it reflects what the public is going to pay?
Or at least made mention of it being a wholesale price, not a retail price?
Post by A***@kapsi.spam.stop.fi.invalid
-a
(ps. Please fix your line width)
seems fine to me.
I guess as long as your posts are intended only for yourself, that's
fine. If you want others to read them, then fix you line width. I
gave up about 1/4 of the way through your post because of the bad
formatting.
--
Grant.
Bull, there is no line length limit on Usenet It is an artistic decision!
StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
2012-03-05 13:04:26 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 11:30:13 GMT, Jan Panteltje
Post by Jan Panteltje
Bull, there is no line length limit on Usenet
It is an artistic decision!
You are a goddamned idiot.

Jan Pan and his utter fucking universal stupidity strikes the group with
his retarded FUD again!

Is that why your pathetic horseshit just caused my NNTP host to reject
my reply to your pathetic, retarded ass? You fucking IDIOT!

I had to actually REMOVE your pathetic GAP before it would. THAT is how
fucking retarded YOU are, NOT my reader OR my NNTP provider.

IT IS ALL YOU, ASSWIPE!

-------------------------

It WAS a *consideration* civil Usenet posters GAVE to each other, just
like NOT top posting, and other 'givens' that you are too fucking stupid
to even be aware of.

Compliant folks are considered to be civil. Non-compliant folks are
considered:

1) To be an idiot for not seeing the common sense the civil among us
enjoy.

2) To be an idiot for being so goddamned lazy in not setting up your
news client correctly that your civility and professional respect is
compromised, OR...

3) To be an idiot because you access Usenet with an ALSO non-compliant
client application or via the web, and you think that because its
defaults do not have it, it must not be right, and refuse to make a
simple settings change.

Essentially, you know nothing of what you speak on AGAIN. It has not a
goddamned thing to do with art. It has to do with community, and
retarded little twits like you who fuck communities up. You are a
goddamned idiot. Period.
Grant Edwards
2012-03-05 15:11:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Panteltje
Post by Grant Edwards
Post by Don McKenzie
Post by A***@kapsi.spam.stop.fi.invalid
(ps. Please fix your line width)
seems fine to me.
I guess as long as your posts are intended only for yourself, that's
fine. If you want others to read them, then fix you line width. I
gave up about 1/4 of the way through your post because of the bad
formatting.
Bull, there is no line length limit on Usenet
I never said there was. What I said was that if your intention is to
communicate with and persuade others, then you would want to present
your argument in the most widely readable format. On Usenet, that
means limiting line length.
Post by Jan Panteltje
It is an artistic decision!
If you claim your postings to Usenet are "art", then how you format
them is indeed an artistic decision. That seems a bit deluded to me,
but I'm not an artist -- I'm an engineer who does embedded system
design.
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! With YOU, I can be
at MYSELF ... We don't NEED
gmail.com Dan Rather ...
RCIngham
2012-03-05 17:39:36 UTC
Permalink
[steps gingerly over a few piles of troll-poo]

A point that some of the posters here seem to have missed is that the
Rasbberry Pi is targetted at the UK secondary education market,
and not the hardware hobbyist, nor the lone electronics entrepreneur,
nor any other country's education system.
I sincerely hope that it succeeds in its intended market.
I suspect that some other types of users will find it adequately useful
for other purposes, and if so, well done all round.


---------------------------------------
Posted through http://www.EmbeddedRelated.com
Jan Panteltje
2012-03-05 20:13:39 UTC
Permalink
On a sunny day (Mon, 5 Mar 2012 15:11:37 +0000 (UTC)) it happened Grant
Post by Grant Edwards
Post by Jan Panteltje
Post by Grant Edwards
Post by Don McKenzie
Post by A***@kapsi.spam.stop.fi.invalid
(ps. Please fix your line width)
seems fine to me.
I guess as long as your posts are intended only for yourself, that's
fine. If you want others to read them, then fix you line width. I
gave up about 1/4 of the way through your post because of the bad
formatting.
Bull, there is no line length limit on Usenet
I never said there was. What I said was that if your intention is to
communicate with and persuade others, then you would want to present
your argument in the most widely readable format. On Usenet, that
means limiting line length.
Post by Jan Panteltje
It is an artistic decision!
If you claim your postings to Usenet are "art", then how you format
them is indeed an artistic decision.
Writing is an art, at least some writing,
My diagrams are fine art too.
Post by Grant Edwards
That seems a bit deluded to me,
Beauty is in the beholders eye,
Post by Grant Edwards
but I'm not an artist -- I'm an engineer who does embedded system
design.
Whatever, for for example a bi tof ASCII art the unlimited possibility of the line length is a relief


----^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^------
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
=== === === === === === === === === === === === === === === === ===
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
/// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// ----^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^------

I love this editor with rectangle mode.
Took a few seconds to draw this.
F Murtz
2012-03-06 01:34:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan Panteltje
On a sunny day (Mon, 5 Mar 2012 15:11:37 +0000 (UTC)) it happened Grant
Post by Grant Edwards
Post by Jan Panteltje
Post by Grant Edwards
Post by Don McKenzie
Post by A***@kapsi.spam.stop.fi.invalid
(ps. Please fix your line width)
seems fine to me.
I guess as long as your posts are intended only for yourself, that's
fine. If you want others to read them, then fix you line width. I
gave up about 1/4 of the way through your post because of the bad
formatting.
Bull, there is no line length limit on Usenet
I never said there was. What I said was that if your intention is to
communicate with and persuade others, then you would want to present
your argument in the most widely readable format. On Usenet, that
means limiting line length.
Post by Jan Panteltje
It is an artistic decision!
If you claim your postings to Usenet are "art", then how you format
them is indeed an artistic decision.
Writing is an art, at least some writing,
My diagrams are fine art too.
Post by Grant Edwards
That seems a bit deluded to me,
Beauty is in the beholders eye,
Post by Grant Edwards
but I'm not an artist -- I'm an engineer who does embedded system
design.
Whatever, for for example a bi tof ASCII art the unlimited possibility of the line length is a relief
----^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^------
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
=== === === === === === === === === === === === === === === === ===
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
/// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// ----^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^------
I love this editor with rectangle mode.
Took a few seconds to draw this.
it might have taken a few seconds,what is it?

WoolyBully
2012-03-05 03:35:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don McKenzie
Post by A***@kapsi.spam.stop.fi.invalid
-a
(ps. Please fix your line width)
seems fine to me.
Cheers Don...
Usenet line length should be set to 72 characters or less.

You have been told this for years.

Instead of being an asshole, like has been the case with this for years
with you... Instead of telling folks to "set their length" on their
end... YOU should be doing what all civil Usenet posters did decades
ago!

Set your fucking max line length to 72 characters or less for Usenet
posts, you fucking inconsiderate fuck!

Cheers that, idiot.
Don McKenzie
2012-03-05 04:26:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by WoolyBully
Instead of being an asshole, like has been the case with this for years
with you... Instead of telling folks to "set their length" on their
end... YOU should be doing what all civil Usenet posters did decades
ago!
Set your fucking max line length to 72 characters or less for Usenet
posts, you fucking inconsiderate fuck!
thanks for your courteous response WoolyBully. Nice to see there are a
few of you still left in the world. You should have told me years ago if
you were aware, shouldn't you?

Sorry all, somewhere between all the tbird version updates from V3 to
V10 in very quick time, my Mailnews.wraplength was reset from 72 to 120.

All should be well now.

Cheers Don...

====================
--
Don McKenzie

Dontronics: http://www.dontronics-shop.com/

DuinoMite the PIC32 $35 Basic Computer-MicroController
http://www.dontronics-shop.com/the-maximite-computer.html
Just add a VGA monitor or TV, and PS2 Keyboard.
Arduino Shield, Programmed in Basic, or C.
A***@kapsi.spam.stop.fi.invalid
2012-03-05 04:04:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don McKenzie
I don't know if you have insider information, or if this is your take on it.
This is all publically available information.
Post by Don McKenzie
If the price quoted isn't the retail price, do you think it would be fair
at this stage if Broadcom announced this, and adjusted the price they are
quoting, so that it reflects what the public is going to pay?
Broadcom has nothing to do with the price, so why would they announce
anything about it?

The final retail price is set by the distributors (RS and Farnell), and at
least at the moment the advertised price seems to vary by local branch. Eg.
RS UK are still advertising a price of £21.60(1), which converts to $34.22,
but in the Philippines they are advertising it for PHP2000(2), which
converts to $47.43.
Post by Don McKenzie
Or at least made mention of it being a wholesale price, not a retail price?
It's not a wholesale price.

-a

(1) <http://uk.rs-online.com/web/generalDisplay.html?id=raspberrypi>
(2) <http://philippines.rs-online.com/web/generalDisplay.html?id=raspberrypi>
Don McKenzie
2012-03-05 04:29:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by A***@kapsi.spam.stop.fi.invalid
Post by Don McKenzie
Or at least made mention of it being a wholesale price, not a retail price?
It's not a wholesale price.
Thanks Anders, so for clarification, it is a retail price, but retailers
are going to put another margin on top, in order to make a profit.

Cheers Don...

======================
--
Don McKenzie

Dontronics: http://www.dontronics-shop.com/

DuinoMite the PIC32 $35 Basic Computer-MicroController
http://www.dontronics-shop.com/the-maximite-computer.html
Just add a VGA monitor or TV, and PS2 Keyboard.
Arduino Shield, Programmed in Basic, or C.
Martin Brown
2012-03-05 08:47:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by A***@kapsi.spam.stop.fi.invalid
Post by Don McKenzie
I don't know if you have insider information, or if this is your take on it.
This is all publically available information.
Post by Don McKenzie
If the price quoted isn't the retail price, do you think it would be fair
at this stage if Broadcom announced this, and adjusted the price they are
quoting, so that it reflects what the public is going to pay?
Broadcom has nothing to do with the price, so why would they announce
anything about it?
They might get some good publicity out of it on the coat tails of a
project that has from nowhere suddenly fired up the public imagination.
Post by A***@kapsi.spam.stop.fi.invalid
The final retail price is set by the distributors (RS and Farnell), and at
least at the moment the advertised price seems to vary by local branch. Eg.
RS UK are still advertising a price of £21.60(1), which converts to $34.22,
but in the Philippines they are advertising it for PHP2000(2), which
converts to $47.43.
I think you will find there is 20% VAT to pay on top of the RS list
price so the end user price inclusive of tax if they are not a VAT
registered business will be £25.92.
Post by A***@kapsi.spam.stop.fi.invalid
Post by Don McKenzie
Or at least made mention of it being a wholesale price, not a retail price?
It's not a wholesale price.
It is the one off "I want to buy one" price and at the moment purchases
are limited to *one* per customer.
Post by A***@kapsi.spam.stop.fi.invalid
-a
(1)<http://uk.rs-online.com/web/generalDisplay.html?id=raspberrypi>
(2)<http://philippines.rs-online.com/web/generalDisplay.html?id=raspberrypi>
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Stephen Pelc
2012-03-03 18:08:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don McKenzie
Thanks Jim, so the $35 price it is openly advertised at, is the
wholesale price, not the retail price? Who else advertises like
that to the public?
The first batch of 10,000 units sold out in about 10 minutes according
to (sort of) reputable gossip. One of our people set up two PCs and
started pounding the refresh keys at the advertised time of 6a.m. He
still failed to get his order in.

I just got an email from one of the suppliers to place my pre-order
for a board from the second batch. Both suppliers are very reputable
and have both been in business for a very long time. Yes, I did place
my order for a Model B at a bit under £25, say less than USD 40.

I detect a note of "Not Invented Here" in some of the comments.
IMHO Raspberry Pi is a cause for celebration, not for whining.

Stephen
--
Stephen Pelc, ***@mpeforth.com
MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time
133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, fax: +44 (0)23 8033 9691
web: http://www.mpeforth.com - free VFX Forth downloads
Grant Edwards
2012-03-03 18:21:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Pelc
I detect a note of "Not Invented Here" in some of the comments.
IMHO Raspberry Pi is a cause for celebration, not for whining.
This is Usenet -- where _everything_ is a cause for whining. :)
--
Grant
Michael A. Terrell
2012-03-04 19:55:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Edwards
Post by Stephen Pelc
I detect a note of "Not Invented Here" in some of the comments.
IMHO Raspberry Pi is a cause for celebration, not for whining.
This is Usenet -- where _everything_ is a cause for whining. :)
GROW UP AND STOP YOUR WHINING!!! ;-)
--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.
Michael A. Terrell
2012-03-03 18:50:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Pelc
Post by Don McKenzie
Thanks Jim, so the $35 price it is openly advertised at, is the
wholesale price, not the retail price? Who else advertises like
that to the public?
The first batch of 10,000 units sold out in about 10 minutes according
to (sort of) reputable gossip. One of our people set up two PCs and
started pounding the refresh keys at the advertised time of 6a.m. He
still failed to get his order in.
I just got an email from one of the suppliers to place my pre-order
for a board from the second batch. Both suppliers are very reputable
and have both been in business for a very long time. Yes, I did place
my order for a Model B at a bit under £25, say less than USD 40.
I detect a note of "Not Invented Here" in some of the comments.
IMHO Raspberry Pi is a cause for celebration, not for whining.
Your 'people' sound like Apple sheep. Or the idiots who stood
outside computer stores for two days, waiting for the release of Win
95. If it's worthwhile, you'll get them after the madness. BTW, there
is already an Ebay listing for a project box to house the pi.
--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.
Nico Coesel
2012-03-03 19:49:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Pelc
Post by Don McKenzie
Thanks Jim, so the $35 price it is openly advertised at, is the
wholesale price, not the retail price? Who else advertises like
that to the public?
The first batch of 10,000 units sold out in about 10 minutes according
Hype?
Post by Stephen Pelc
I detect a note of "Not Invented Here" in some of the comments.
IMHO Raspberry Pi is a cause for celebration, not for whining.
There are loads of boards out there (some with better specs) for
reasonable prices based on SoCs for which you can download full
datasheets and user manuals. In the long run such a board will be much
more usefull.
--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
***@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
--------------------------------------------------------------
rickman
2012-03-04 02:41:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Pelc
Post by Don McKenzie
Thanks Jim, so the $35 price it is openly advertised at, is the
wholesale price, not the retail price? Who else advertises like
that to the public?
The first batch of 10,000 units sold out in about 10 minutes according
to (sort of) reputable gossip. One of our people set up two PCs and
started pounding the refresh keys at the advertised time of 6a.m. He
still failed to get his order in.
I just got an email from one of the suppliers to place my pre-order
for a board from the second batch. Both suppliers are very reputable
and have both been in business for a very long time. Yes, I did place
my order for a Model B at a bit under £25, say less than USD 40.
I detect a note of "Not Invented Here" in some of the comments.
IMHO Raspberry Pi is a cause for celebration, not for whining.
Stephen
--
MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time
133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, fax: +44 (0)23 8033 9691
web:http://www.mpeforth.com- free VFX Forth downloads
Whatcha gonna do wid dat pi Stephen? If you want to push a forth on a
popular embedded platform, why not go for the BeagleBone?

Rick
geoff
2012-03-02 22:11:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don McKenzie
Is the Raspberry Pi real at that price?
http://www.raspberrypi.org/
http://twitter.com/#!/raspberry_pi
I can't help but think when you sell 10K pieces of an item at bargain
basement prices, (and in a single day), and in advance of having the
products, that there may be something very wrong.
They have entered into licensed manufacture partnerships with two
British companies, Premier Farnell and RS Components. That means
there has to be a dealer margin. If you can retail it at $25, then
how much did it cost wholesale?
I may be barking up the wrong tree, but am I one of the few sensing
something may be very wrong with this deal?
How much do you image the real manufacturing cost of, say, an Android
smartphone is ?

geoff
Don McKenzie
2012-03-02 22:21:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by geoff
How much do you image the real manufacturing cost of, say, an Android
smartphone is ?
geoff
I would imagine it could be in the range of 5% to 20% of the retail price, but it must reach the wholesaler at a price
he can make a living out of it, otherwise he wouldn't be in business.

Cheers Don...

=========================
--
Don McKenzie

Dontronics: http://www.dontronics-shop.com/

DuinoMite the PIC32 $35 Basic Computer-MicroController
http://www.dontronics-shop.com/the-maximite-computer.html
Just add a VGA monitor or TV, and PS2 Keyboard.
Arduino Shield, Programmed in Basic, or C.
Joel Koltner
2012-03-02 23:34:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don McKenzie
Post by geoff
How much do you image the real manufacturing cost of, say, an Android
smartphone is ?
I would imagine it could be in the range of 5% to 20% of the retail
price, but it must reach the wholesaler at a price he can make a living
out of it, otherwise he wouldn't be in business.
Actually, even Apple isn't able to command that sort of markup with iPhones!

Here's an article that'll give you some more concrete numbers:
http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2010/03/02/what-doth-it-profit-an-iphone .
As you'll see, most phones cost some 60-70% of their selling price.

The margins in consumer electronics are very thin; it works because
there is so much volume. There aren't that many wholesalers left anyway
-- at least in terms of volume, I think it's safe to say the vast
majority of electronics goes straight from the manufacturer to a
retailer; Wal*Mart and Best Buy aren't getting their phones from a
middleman, although some small mom & pop shop likely are.

(Indeed... you sometimes hear small businessmen complain that their
costs for products from their wholesalers are more than the retail price
from Wal*Mart or Costco...)

---Joel
Nico Coesel
2012-03-02 23:51:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joel Koltner
Post by Don McKenzie
Post by geoff
How much do you image the real manufacturing cost of, say, an Android
smartphone is ?
I would imagine it could be in the range of 5% to 20% of the retail
price, but it must reach the wholesaler at a price he can make a living
out of it, otherwise he wouldn't be in business.
Actually, even Apple isn't able to command that sort of markup with iPhones!
http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2010/03/02/what-doth-it-profit-an-iphone .
As you'll see, most phones cost some 60-70% of their selling price.
The margins in consumer electronics are very thin; it works because
there is so much volume. There aren't that many wholesalers left anyway
-- at least in terms of volume, I think it's safe to say the vast
majority of electronics goes straight from the manufacturer to a
retailer; Wal*Mart and Best Buy aren't getting their phones from a
middleman, although some small mom & pop shop likely are.
Thats not entirely true. Shops like WM,BB and similar often have high
costs and usually are not cheap. They sell a few items below cost
price to appear cheap but with other things they most certainly are
not cheap. They are convenient because they have a large stock of many
items. Stock costs money. Smaller shops are cheaper in most cases if
they have what you need.

But then again, online shops are the future. Nowadays I even order
home improvement stuff online.
Post by Joel Koltner
(Indeed... you sometimes hear small businessmen complain that their
costs for products from their wholesalers are more than the retail price
from Wal*Mart or Costco...)
That's not a 'small business man' that's someone who shouldn't be in
business in the first place.
--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
***@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
--------------------------------------------------------------
keithr
2012-03-04 02:30:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don McKenzie
Post by geoff
How much do you image the real manufacturing cost of, say, an Android
smartphone is ?
geoff
I would imagine it could be in the range of 5% to 20% of the retail
price, but it must reach the wholesaler at a price he can make a living
out of it, otherwise he wouldn't be in business.
Cheers Don...
=========================
RS Australia has it listed at $50, which is probably about what you'd
have to pay to get a $35 item from the UK including shipping.

I will certainly get one as soon as I can, I'd like to see whether it
can run apache as a home web server and home automation machine.

A full Linux machine for $50 is disruptive technology, if it does
perform as the hype suggests, I see a lot of uses for it, and probably a
flood of imitators.

The PIC and Arduino boards certainly have their uses, but horse for
courses.
rickman
2012-03-04 04:07:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by keithr
Post by Don McKenzie
Post by geoff
How much do you image the real manufacturing cost of, say, an Android
smartphone is ?
geoff
I would imagine it could be in the range of 5% to 20% of the retail
price, but it must reach the wholesaler at a price he can make a living
out of it, otherwise he wouldn't be in business.
Cheers Don...
=========================
RS Australia has it listed at $50, which is probably about what you'd
have to pay to get a $35 item from the UK including shipping.
I will certainly get one as soon as I can, I'd like to see whether it
can run apache as a home web server and home automation machine.
A full Linux machine for $50 is disruptive technology, if it does
perform as the hype suggests, I see a lot of uses for it, and probably a
flood of imitators.
The PIC and Arduino boards  certainly have their uses, but horse for
courses.
Really, disruptive technology? Is this really much less than the cost
of a smart cell phone which has a user interface and also makes phone
calls!

Rick
TheGlimmerMan
2012-03-04 05:24:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by rickman
Really, disruptive technology? Is this really much less than the cost
of a smart cell phone which has a user interface and also makes phone
calls!
Rick
You cannot physically turn things on and off with that (the phone). All
you can do is control the devices which can (these devices).

His can switch relays on and off. The damned things do need a net
connection though.

So, look at say the ten times overpriced "industry" that was made by a
few for billiard halls to turn the lights on and off,and log play times.

Each "receiver/switch" was very expensive and each table needs one.
The software was expensive as well.

This would allow one to control any number of tables for a little over
$40 each. And you could author and perfect your own time logging
application. You could even put dimmers in and control the light level.

I could sell this, if pool had more popularity. Sadly, operating costs
have grown so much that the per hour rate for pool has gotten ridiculous.
They even charge per person now in some places instead of per table.

How truly sad. Bastards actually want to make money. It should be
popular though.

Dumb folks everywhere would rather give a bar money for liquor though.

Billiards should be more popular.
bitrex
2012-03-04 06:04:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheGlimmerMan
Post by rickman
Really, disruptive technology? Is this really much less than the cost
of a smart cell phone which has a user interface and also makes phone
calls!
Rick
You cannot physically turn things on and off with that (the phone). All
you can do is control the devices which can (these devices).
His can switch relays on and off. The damned things do need a net
connection though.
So, look at say the ten times overpriced "industry" that was made by a
few for billiard halls to turn the lights on and off,and log play times.
Each "receiver/switch" was very expensive and each table needs one.
The software was expensive as well.
This would allow one to control any number of tables for a little over
$40 each. And you could author and perfect your own time logging
application. You could even put dimmers in and control the light level.
I could sell this, if pool had more popularity. Sadly, operating costs
have grown so much that the per hour rate for pool has gotten ridiculous.
They even charge per person now in some places instead of per table.
How truly sad. Bastards actually want to make money. It should be
popular though.
Dumb folks everywhere would rather give a bar money for liquor though.
Billiards should be more popular.
I was discussing with someone that the Pi could be used as a musical
instrument: add an inexpensive USB audio/MIDI interface plus some
software, hook up a MIDI controller keyboard, and you have a hardware
sampler/synthesizer that can stream mega or gigabyte sound "patches" off
the memory card. It could probably run the stage lighting if it's DMX
equipped. And you're not out a grand if someone spills their beer on
it, unlike a laptop.
TheGlimmerMan
2012-03-04 06:37:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by bitrex
Post by TheGlimmerMan
Post by rickman
Really, disruptive technology? Is this really much less than the cost
of a smart cell phone which has a user interface and also makes phone
calls!
Rick
You cannot physically turn things on and off with that (the phone). All
you can do is control the devices which can (these devices).
His can switch relays on and off. The damned things do need a net
connection though.
So, look at say the ten times overpriced "industry" that was made by a
few for billiard halls to turn the lights on and off,and log play times.
Each "receiver/switch" was very expensive and each table needs one.
The software was expensive as well.
This would allow one to control any number of tables for a little over
$40 each. And you could author and perfect your own time logging
application. You could even put dimmers in and control the light level.
I could sell this, if pool had more popularity. Sadly, operating costs
have grown so much that the per hour rate for pool has gotten ridiculous.
They even charge per person now in some places instead of per table.
How truly sad. Bastards actually want to make money. It should be
popular though.
Dumb folks everywhere would rather give a bar money for liquor though.
Billiards should be more popular.
I was discussing with someone that the Pi could be used as a musical
instrument: add an inexpensive USB audio/MIDI interface plus some
software, hook up a MIDI controller keyboard, and you have a hardware
sampler/synthesizer that can stream mega or gigabyte sound "patches" off
the memory card. It could probably run the stage lighting if it's DMX
equipped. And you're not out a grand if someone spills their beer on
it, unlike a laptop.
Conformal coat it. After you hook everything up to it. :-)
rickman
2012-03-04 23:06:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by bitrex
Really, disruptive technology?  Is this really much less than the cost
of a smart cell phone which has a user interface and also makes phone
calls!
Rick
   You cannot physically turn things on and off with that (the phone). All
you can do is control the devices which can (these devices).
   His can switch relays on and off.  The damned things do need a net
connection though.
   So, look at say the ten times overpriced "industry" that was made by a
few for billiard halls to turn the lights on and off,and log play times.
   Each "receiver/switch" was very expensive and each table needs one.
The software was expensive as well.
  This would allow one to control any number of tables for a little over
$40 each.  And you could author and perfect your own time logging
application.  You could even put dimmers in and control the light level.
   I could sell this, if pool had more popularity.  Sadly, operating costs
have grown so much that the per hour rate for pool has gotten ridiculous.
They even charge per person now in some places instead of per table.
   How truly sad.  Bastards actually want to make money.  It should be
popular though.
  Dumb folks everywhere would rather give a bar money for liquor though.
   Billiards should be more popular.
I was discussing with someone that the Pi could be used as a musical
instrument: add an inexpensive USB audio/MIDI interface plus some
software, hook up a MIDI controller keyboard, and you have a hardware
sampler/synthesizer that can stream mega or gigabyte sound "patches" off
the memory card.  It could probably run the stage lighting if it's DMX
equipped.  And you're not out a grand if someone spills their beer on
it, unlike a laptop.
Yes, and if you had an onion it would make my stone soup taste a lot
better too!

You are ignoring that you still need to connect the rPi to a display
of some sort, usually about the same cost as a laptop (where did you
get the grand price?) and keyboard and mouse. The difference is the
laptop will actually do the job without screwing with how to connect
it all up without being a tangle of wires all over.

Rick
A***@kapsi.spam.stop.fi.invalid
2012-03-05 00:34:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by rickman
Post by bitrex
I was discussing with someone that the Pi could be used as a musical
instrument: add an inexpensive USB audio/MIDI interface plus some
software, hook up a MIDI controller keyboard, and you have a hardware
sampler/synthesizer that can stream mega or gigabyte sound "patches" off
the memory card.  It could probably run the stage lighting if it's DMX
equipped.  And you're not out a grand if someone spills their beer on
it, unlike a laptop.
You are ignoring that you still need to connect the rPi to a display
of some sort, usually about the same cost as a laptop (where did you
get the grand price?) and keyboard and mouse.
I believe the suggested idea was to use the Pi as an embedded DSP board for
sound generation. Have it boot directly into the synth software, control it
over MIDI (serial or USB) and you don't need any other input nor an attached
display.

-a
keithr
2012-03-05 12:22:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by rickman
Post by bitrex
Post by TheGlimmerMan
Post by rickman
Really, disruptive technology? Is this really much less than the cost
of a smart cell phone which has a user interface and also makes phone
calls!
Rick
You cannot physically turn things on and off with that (the phone). All
you can do is control the devices which can (these devices).
His can switch relays on and off. The damned things do need a net
connection though.
So, look at say the ten times overpriced "industry" that was made by a
few for billiard halls to turn the lights on and off,and log play times.
Each "receiver/switch" was very expensive and each table needs one.
The software was expensive as well.
This would allow one to control any number of tables for a little over
$40 each. And you could author and perfect your own time logging
application. You could even put dimmers in and control the light level.
I could sell this, if pool had more popularity. Sadly, operating costs
have grown so much that the per hour rate for pool has gotten ridiculous.
They even charge per person now in some places instead of per table.
How truly sad. Bastards actually want to make money. It should be
popular though.
Dumb folks everywhere would rather give a bar money for liquor though.
Billiards should be more popular.
I was discussing with someone that the Pi could be used as a musical
instrument: add an inexpensive USB audio/MIDI interface plus some
software, hook up a MIDI controller keyboard, and you have a hardware
sampler/synthesizer that can stream mega or gigabyte sound "patches" off
the memory card. It could probably run the stage lighting if it's DMX
equipped. And you're not out a grand if someone spills their beer on
it, unlike a laptop.
Yes, and if you had an onion it would make my stone soup taste a lot
better too!
You are ignoring that you still need to connect the rPi to a display
of some sort, usually about the same cost as a laptop
I don't know about where you live, but around here a small TV with an
HDMI input is a lot cheaper than a laptop. Ditto for a cheap display.
Post by rickman
(where did you get the grand price?) and keyboard and mouse.
Keyboard 10 bucks mouse probably even cheaper.
Post by rickman
the difference is the
laptop will actually do the job without screwing with how to connect
it all up without being a tangle of wires all over.
Rick
Dennis
2012-03-05 12:40:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by rickman
Post by bitrex
Post by TheGlimmerMan
Post by rickman
Really, disruptive technology? Is this really much less than the cost
of a smart cell phone which has a user interface and also makes phone
calls!
Rick
You cannot physically turn things on and off with that (the phone). All
you can do is control the devices which can (these devices).
His can switch relays on and off. The damned things do need a net
connection though.
So, look at say the ten times overpriced "industry" that was made by a
few for billiard halls to turn the lights on and off,and log play times.
Each "receiver/switch" was very expensive and each table needs one.
The software was expensive as well.
This would allow one to control any number of tables for a little over
$40 each. And you could author and perfect your own time logging
application. You could even put dimmers in and control the light level.
I could sell this, if pool had more popularity. Sadly, operating costs
have grown so much that the per hour rate for pool has gotten ridiculous.
They even charge per person now in some places instead of per table.
How truly sad. Bastards actually want to make money. It should be
popular though.
Dumb folks everywhere would rather give a bar money for liquor though.
Billiards should be more popular.
I was discussing with someone that the Pi could be used as a musical
instrument: add an inexpensive USB audio/MIDI interface plus some
software, hook up a MIDI controller keyboard, and you have a hardware
sampler/synthesizer that can stream mega or gigabyte sound "patches" off
the memory card. It could probably run the stage lighting if it's DMX
equipped. And you're not out a grand if someone spills their beer on
it, unlike a laptop.
Yes, and if you had an onion it would make my stone soup taste a lot
better too!
You are ignoring that you still need to connect the rPi to a display
of some sort, usually about the same cost as a laptop
I don't know about where you live, but around here a small TV with an HDMI
input is a lot cheaper than a laptop. Ditto for a cheap display.
Post by rickman
(where did you get the grand price?) and keyboard and mouse.
Keyboard 10 bucks mouse probably even cheaper.
Woolies are flogging usb kbds for $2.99 standard price.
Post by rickman
the difference is the
laptop will actually do the job without screwing with how to connect
it all up without being a tangle of wires all over.
Rick
Nico Coesel
2012-03-04 14:11:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheGlimmerMan
Post by rickman
Really, disruptive technology? Is this really much less than the cost
of a smart cell phone which has a user interface and also makes phone
calls!
Rick
You cannot physically turn things on and off with that (the phone). All
you can do is control the devices which can (these devices).
His can switch relays on and off. The damned things do need a net
connection though.
So, look at say the ten times overpriced "industry" that was made by a
few for billiard halls to turn the lights on and off,and log play times.
Each "receiver/switch" was very expensive and each table needs one.
The software was expensive as well.
This would allow one to control any number of tables for a little over
$40 each. And you could author and perfect your own time logging
application. You could even put dimmers in and control the light level.
For this kind of products the costs are not in the hardware but in the
software.
--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
***@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
--------------------------------------------------------------
TheGlimmerMan
2012-03-04 16:10:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nico Coesel
For this kind of products the costs are not in the hardware but in the
software.
It runs Linux, idiot.

It would be VERY easy to write a program to turn them on and off, and
log the time accrued and then do an OLTP set up for the tax boys.

I was not talking about, nor would I give such "software assholes" the
pleasure of getting ten times what something is worth, by buying their
crap.

I wrote OLTP systems years ago. It ain't all that, and no author
deserves to price that way in my book. That's why I got hired. Because I
deliver on performance, not some lame appearance of professionalism.

We have labeling software that was written in the old W 3.11 days, and
the idiots are still using the same, single process thread code. Yet
they want thousands per seat, simply because it is paired with the
printers for the labels, and it does bar codes reliably.

Pretty sad that they got so greedy simply because it was for a
business. Their crap ain't worth $50.
Nico Coesel
2012-03-04 20:33:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by TheGlimmerMan
Post by Nico Coesel
For this kind of products the costs are not in the hardware but in the
software.
It would be VERY easy to write a program to turn them on and off, and
log the time accrued and then do an OLTP set up for the tax boys.
That part is easy. Now try to store the data and present it (turnover,
utilisation). And while you are at it, add some management functions
like different tarifs for different times & days. Lock-out during
certain hours, etc, etc. Oh, and how about being able to do things
remote from on -say- a tablet? Thats what customers want these days.
Post by TheGlimmerMan
Pretty sad that they got so greedy simply because it was for a
business. Their crap ain't worth $50.
IMHO you are whining because you missed out on that opportunity.
--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
***@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
--------------------------------------------------------------
TheGlimmerMan
2012-03-05 00:10:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nico Coesel
That part is easy. Now try to store the data and present it (turnover,
utilisation).
You obviously didn't even read what I wrote. I used to author OLTP
transaction systems and databases. Your "turnover utilization" is
trivial.
Post by Nico Coesel
And while you are at it, add some management functions
like different tarifs for different times & days.
Real simple. The operator turns the table on,and it has the rates
already programmed into the tally it keeps.
Post by Nico Coesel
Lock-out during
certain hours, etc, etc.
Can't give out a table if the doors are closed, idiot.
Post by Nico Coesel
Oh, and how about being able to do things
remote from on -say- a tablet?
The clerk at a business is always at a(the) cash register and he can't
spawn a rack of balls from his iPhone, you fucking iTard!
Post by Nico Coesel
Thats what customers want these days.
You're an idiot,these days.
TheGlimmerMan
2012-03-05 00:11:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nico Coesel
Post by TheGlimmerMan
Pretty sad that they got so greedy simply because it was for a
business. Their crap ain't worth $50.
IMHO you are whining because you missed out on that opportunity.
You'rean idiot.I made a complaint about some label software we use.

Stop being a Larkinesque pathetic little bitch.
SMS
2012-03-04 02:57:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don McKenzie
Is the Raspberry Pi real at that price?
http://www.raspberrypi.org/
http://twitter.com/#!/raspberry_pi
I can't help but think when you sell 10K pieces of an item at bargain
basement prices, (and in a single day), and in advance of having the
products, that there may be something very wrong.
They have entered into licensed manufacture partnerships with two
British companies, Premier Farnell and RS Components.
That means there has to be a dealer margin. If you can retail it at $25,
then how much did it cost wholesale?
I may be barking up the wrong tree, but am I one of the few sensing
something may be very wrong with this deal?
http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4748&PN=1
Anyone have insider information that what I am saying is completely off the mark?
Embedded processors are very inexpensive. $25 is not out of line, even
with healthy margins.
Martin Brown
2012-03-04 10:07:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don McKenzie
Is the Raspberry Pi real at that price?
http://www.raspberrypi.org/
http://twitter.com/#!/raspberry_pi
I can't help but think when you sell 10K pieces of an item at bargain
basement prices, (and in a single day), and in advance of having the
products, that there may be something very wrong.
They have entered into licensed manufacture partnerships with two
British companies, Premier Farnell and RS Components.
That means there has to be a dealer margin. If you can retail it at $25,
then how much did it cost wholesale?
It is retailing at £25 ($40). There is another rival development single
board of similar size and lesser capability for about £10 (but much less
sophisticated). At least part of the intention is educational to make
computing and electronics engineering more interesting to school
children. The existing UK syllabus churns out MickeySoft Office drone
users with no clue at all how PCs and software work. In a reference back
to the BBC Micro they have even called them Models A and B.
Post by Don McKenzie
I may be barking up the wrong tree, but am I one of the few sensing
something may be very wrong with this deal?
I think they expect to sell a lot of them and since the opening day took
down both the major UK electronics suppliers websites they could well be
right. It is priced to allow every schoolchild to have one.

I reckon they called in a lot of favours to get it designed for maximum
capability, minimum cost and built for that price. I wish them good luck
with the project. We need to get more youngsters interested in
engineering at school as opposed to soft options "meedja studdis".

Brian Cox and Jim Alkalili have already turned round the decline of the
hard sciences. The former making Physics very "cool" at the moment!
Post by Don McKenzie
http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4748&PN=1
Anyone have insider information that what I am saying is completely off the mark?
Comments?
Of course, If I am off the mark, this will be more free advertising for them. :-)
I expect there isn't a lot of margin but the price isn't completely
impossible either. Just look at the cheapest PC graphics cards.

If it becomes the new BBC Micro it will engage a new generation of
children in direct connection with real electronics and software at a
level where it can be relatively easily understood and played with.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
k***@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
2012-03-04 15:51:03 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 10:07:11 +0000, Martin Brown
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Don McKenzie
Is the Raspberry Pi real at that price?
http://www.raspberrypi.org/
http://twitter.com/#!/raspberry_pi
I can't help but think when you sell 10K pieces of an item at bargain
basement prices, (and in a single day), and in advance of having the
products, that there may be something very wrong.
They have entered into licensed manufacture partnerships with two
British companies, Premier Farnell and RS Components.
That means there has to be a dealer margin. If you can retail it at $25,
then how much did it cost wholesale?
It is retailing at £25 ($40). There is another rival development single
board of similar size and lesser capability for about £10 (but much less
sophisticated). At least part of the intention is educational to make
computing and electronics engineering more interesting to school
children. The existing UK syllabus churns out MickeySoft Office drone
users with no clue at all how PCs and software work. In a reference back
to the BBC Micro they have even called them Models A and B.
Post by Don McKenzie
I may be barking up the wrong tree, but am I one of the few sensing
something may be very wrong with this deal?
I think they expect to sell a lot of them and since the opening day took
down both the major UK electronics suppliers websites they could well be
right. It is priced to allow every schoolchild to have one.
In many areas, every high school student gets a laptop. It hasn't changed
anything outside the school budgets.
Post by Martin Brown
I reckon they called in a lot of favours to get it designed for maximum
capability, minimum cost and built for that price. I wish them good luck
with the project. We need to get more youngsters interested in
engineering at school as opposed to soft options "meedja studdis".
I don't see how that follows, either. It may entice some latent code monkeys
but I don't see how a finished product like this is going to create a
significant number of budding engineers. That's a tough one, given the level
of integration today.
Post by Martin Brown
Brian Cox and Jim Alkalili have already turned round the decline of the
hard sciences. The former making Physics very "cool" at the moment!
Never heard of them but it looks cool.
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Don McKenzie
http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4748&PN=1
Anyone have insider information that what I am saying is completely off the mark?
Comments?
Of course, If I am off the mark, this will be more free advertising for them. :-)
I expect there isn't a lot of margin but the price isn't completely
impossible either. Just look at the cheapest PC graphics cards.
Amazing.
Post by Martin Brown
If it becomes the new BBC Micro it will engage a new generation of
children in direct connection with real electronics and software at a
level where it can be relatively easily understood and played with.
I don't see how a canned computer interests anyone in electronics. Software,
maybe. More script kiddies, sure. I don't see the latter as being
particularly useful (in the global economy), though.
Nobody
2012-03-04 23:25:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
Post by Martin Brown
If it becomes the new BBC Micro it will engage a new generation of
children in direct connection with real electronics and software at a
level where it can be relatively easily understood and played with.
I don't see how a canned computer interests anyone in electronics. Software,
maybe. More script kiddies, sure. I don't see the latter as being
particularly useful (in the global economy), though.
It does have a connector for I2C, SPI, and GPIO. It seems to be aiming
to be a cross between a cheaper BeagleBoard and a more powerful Arduino,
rather than being a dirt-cheap PC.

It's powerful enough to run GUI programs and be programmed in high-level
languages, which lowers the barrier to entry. It's (supposedly) cheap
enough that you can allow students to connect their own circuits to the
I/O port without having to worry about the budget implications of boards
getting fried occasionally.
Martin Brown
2012-03-05 09:02:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 10:07:11 +0000, Martin Brown
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Don McKenzie
I may be barking up the wrong tree, but am I one of the few sensing
something may be very wrong with this deal?
I think they expect to sell a lot of them and since the opening day took
down both the major UK electronics suppliers websites they could well be
right. It is priced to allow every schoolchild to have one.
In many areas, every high school student gets a laptop. It hasn't changed
anything outside the school budgets.
The idea in this case stems from academia and the shortage of new
undergraduates interested in the nuts and bolts of computing.
Post by k***@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
Post by Martin Brown
I reckon they called in a lot of favours to get it designed for maximum
capability, minimum cost and built for that price. I wish them good luck
with the project. We need to get more youngsters interested in
engineering at school as opposed to soft options "meedja studdis".
I don't see how that follows, either. It may entice some latent code monkeys
but I don't see how a finished product like this is going to create a
significant number of budding engineers. That's a tough one, given the level
of integration today.
I agree. I cut my teeth taking apart TTL from failed ICL1900 boards and
sorting the house codes into 74xx chips to test and build new things.
These days with tight multilegged surface mount devices you stand no
chance of getting bits to play with from old scrap boards.
Post by k***@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
Post by Martin Brown
Brian Cox and Jim Alkalili have already turned round the decline of the
hard sciences. The former making Physics very "cool" at the moment!
Never heard of them but it looks cool.
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Don McKenzie
http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4748&PN=1
Anyone have insider information that what I am saying is completely off the mark?
Comments?
Of course, If I am off the mark, this will be more free advertising for them. :-)
I expect there isn't a lot of margin but the price isn't completely
impossible either. Just look at the cheapest PC graphics cards.
Amazing.
Post by Martin Brown
If it becomes the new BBC Micro it will engage a new generation of
children in direct connection with real electronics and software at a
level where it can be relatively easily understood and played with.
I don't see how a canned computer interests anyone in electronics. Software,
We will have to wait and see how it plays out. The BBC micro in its day
spawned a whole bunch of DIY add-ons as did the ill fated Sinclair QL.
Post by k***@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
maybe. More script kiddies, sure. I don't see the latter as being
particularly useful (in the global economy), though.
The modern PC is just too complicated for children to learn to program
well and interface to DIY external hardware.

I just hope that they have got the software programming toolset for this
device right. Since Alan Mycroft is an expert in compiler design and
static code testing there is a sporting chance that it will provide a
useful environment for teaching computer internals at school.

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~am21/

I haven't seen one in the flesh yet. But the pedigree of the trustees of
Raspberry Pi is excellent in terms of computer science skills.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
My Name Is Tzu How Do You Do
2012-03-05 12:49:33 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 09:02:16 +0000, Martin Brown
Post by Martin Brown
Post by k***@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
In many areas, every high school student gets a laptop. It hasn't changed
anything outside the school budgets.
The idea in this case stems from academia and the shortage of new
undergraduates interested in the nuts and bolts of computing.
Most college coursework is enhanced with laptop ownership. Any student
in his or her right mind will have one, and it has nothing to do with
interest in the science.

ALL engineers have them. There are only a few engineers' offices at
work which are not fitted without a computer, but *with* a laptop docking
station.

It also poses policy and protocol logistical needs for drive encryption
to keep your company's data theirs.
k***@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
2012-03-05 18:27:07 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 09:02:16 +0000, Martin Brown
Post by Martin Brown
Post by k***@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 10:07:11 +0000, Martin Brown
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Don McKenzie
I may be barking up the wrong tree, but am I one of the few sensing
something may be very wrong with this deal?
I think they expect to sell a lot of them and since the opening day took
down both the major UK electronics suppliers websites they could well be
right. It is priced to allow every schoolchild to have one.
In many areas, every high school student gets a laptop. It hasn't changed
anything outside the school budgets.
The idea in this case stems from academia and the shortage of new
undergraduates interested in the nuts and bolts of computing.
How does highly integrated, and even *closed*, hardware accomplish that?
Post by Martin Brown
Post by k***@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
Post by Martin Brown
I reckon they called in a lot of favours to get it designed for maximum
capability, minimum cost and built for that price. I wish them good luck
with the project. We need to get more youngsters interested in
engineering at school as opposed to soft options "meedja studdis".
I don't see how that follows, either. It may entice some latent code monkeys
but I don't see how a finished product like this is going to create a
significant number of budding engineers. That's a tough one, given the level
of integration today.
I agree. I cut my teeth taking apart TTL from failed ICL1900 boards and
sorting the house codes into 74xx chips to test and build new things.
These days with tight multilegged surface mount devices you stand no
chance of getting bits to play with from old scrap boards.
Yep. I started taking apart military stuff to salvage 2N697s and TVs for the
passives.
Post by Martin Brown
Post by k***@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
Post by Martin Brown
Brian Cox and Jim Alkalili have already turned round the decline of the
hard sciences. The former making Physics very "cool" at the moment!
Never heard of them but it looks cool.
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Don McKenzie
http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4748&PN=1
Anyone have insider information that what I am saying is completely off the mark?
Comments?
Of course, If I am off the mark, this will be more free advertising for them. :-)
I expect there isn't a lot of margin but the price isn't completely
impossible either. Just look at the cheapest PC graphics cards.
Amazing.
Post by Martin Brown
If it becomes the new BBC Micro it will engage a new generation of
children in direct connection with real electronics and software at a
level where it can be relatively easily understood and played with.
I don't see how a canned computer interests anyone in electronics. Software,
We will have to wait and see how it plays out. The BBC micro in its day
spawned a whole bunch of DIY add-ons as did the ill fated Sinclair QL.
Those weren't closed and certainly weren't highly integrated. This thing just
looks like an appliance. "Don't look behind the curtain."
Post by Martin Brown
Post by k***@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
maybe. More script kiddies, sure. I don't see the latter as being
particularly useful (in the global economy), though.
The modern PC is just too complicated for children to learn to program
well and interface to DIY external hardware.
I'm not buying it. It can still be done. I don't see that a modern PC does
much, either, though. OTOH, I don't see that this does *anything*, certainly
less than any number of SDKs. Seems like a Broadcom gimmick.
Post by Martin Brown
I just hope that they have got the software programming toolset for this
device right. Since Alan Mycroft is an expert in compiler design and
static code testing there is a sporting chance that it will provide a
useful environment for teaching computer internals at school.
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~am21/
I haven't seen one in the flesh yet. But the pedigree of the trustees of
Raspberry Pi is excellent in terms of computer science skills.
It's *DOOMED*. ;-)
Grant Edwards
2012-03-05 19:16:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by My Name Is Tzu How Do You Do
On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 09:02:16 +0000, Martin Brown
Post by Martin Brown
Post by k***@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 10:07:11 +0000, Martin Brown
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Don McKenzie
I may be barking up the wrong tree, but am I one of the few sensing
something may be very wrong with this deal?
I think they expect to sell a lot of them and since the opening day took
down both the major UK electronics suppliers websites they could well be
right. It is priced to allow every schoolchild to have one.
In many areas, every high school student gets a laptop. It hasn't changed
anything outside the school budgets.
The idea in this case stems from academia and the shortage of new
undergraduates interested in the nuts and bolts of computing.
How does highly integrated, and even *closed*, hardware accomplish that?
According to what I've read, the point is to use the RPi as something
to which one can "bolt-on" hardware which you can then play with by
writing software to run on the RPi.
Post by My Name Is Tzu How Do You Do
Post by Martin Brown
We will have to wait and see how it plays out. The BBC micro in its day
spawned a whole bunch of DIY add-ons as did the ill fated Sinclair QL.
Those weren't closed and certainly weren't highly integrated. This thing just
looks like an appliance.
An appliance with a GPIO header, which I presume is documented and
accessible to the user. I would have preferred an 8-bit or 16-bit
expansion bus with a couple pre-decoded chip-select lines as well.
Post by My Name Is Tzu How Do You Do
Post by Martin Brown
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~am21/
I haven't seen one in the flesh yet. But the pedigree of the trustees of
Raspberry Pi is excellent in terms of computer science skills.
It's *DOOMED*. ;-)
Yea, I've got a few stories about CS majors who tried to get a little
too close to the hardware...
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! Clear the laundromat!!
at This whirl-o-matic just had
gmail.com a nuclear meltdown!!
k***@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
2012-03-05 20:12:01 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 5 Mar 2012 19:16:35 +0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards
Post by Grant Edwards
Post by My Name Is Tzu How Do You Do
On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 09:02:16 +0000, Martin Brown
Post by Martin Brown
Post by k***@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 10:07:11 +0000, Martin Brown
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Don McKenzie
I may be barking up the wrong tree, but am I one of the few sensing
something may be very wrong with this deal?
I think they expect to sell a lot of them and since the opening day took
down both the major UK electronics suppliers websites they could well be
right. It is priced to allow every schoolchild to have one.
In many areas, every high school student gets a laptop. It hasn't changed
anything outside the school budgets.
The idea in this case stems from academia and the shortage of new
undergraduates interested in the nuts and bolts of computing.
How does highly integrated, and even *closed*, hardware accomplish that?
According to what I've read, the point is to use the RPi as something
to which one can "bolt-on" hardware which you can then play with by
writing software to run on the RPi.
So it is a script-kiddy toy. You can do that with a PC.
Post by Grant Edwards
Post by My Name Is Tzu How Do You Do
Post by Martin Brown
We will have to wait and see how it plays out. The BBC micro in its day
spawned a whole bunch of DIY add-ons as did the ill fated Sinclair QL.
Those weren't closed and certainly weren't highly integrated. This thing just
looks like an appliance.
An appliance with a GPIO header, which I presume is documented and
accessible to the user. I would have preferred an 8-bit or 16-bit
expansion bus with a couple pre-decoded chip-select lines as well.
USB to whatever. <yawn>
Post by Grant Edwards
Post by My Name Is Tzu How Do You Do
Post by Martin Brown
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~am21/
I haven't seen one in the flesh yet. But the pedigree of the trustees of
Raspberry Pi is excellent in terms of computer science skills.
It's *DOOMED*. ;-)
Yea, I've got a few stories about CS majors who tried to get a little
too close to the hardware...
I love it when they try to do VHDL. ;-)
keithr
2012-03-05 20:50:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by My Name Is Tzu How Do You Do
On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 09:02:16 +0000, Martin Brown
Post by Martin Brown
Post by k***@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 10:07:11 +0000, Martin Brown
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Don McKenzie
I may be barking up the wrong tree, but am I one of the few sensing
something may be very wrong with this deal?
I think they expect to sell a lot of them and since the opening day took
down both the major UK electronics suppliers websites they could well be
right. It is priced to allow every schoolchild to have one.
In many areas, every high school student gets a laptop. It hasn't changed
anything outside the school budgets.
The idea in this case stems from academia and the shortage of new
undergraduates interested in the nuts and bolts of computing.
How does highly integrated, and even *closed*, hardware accomplish that?
Post by Martin Brown
Post by k***@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
Post by Martin Brown
I reckon they called in a lot of favours to get it designed for maximum
capability, minimum cost and built for that price. I wish them good luck
with the project. We need to get more youngsters interested in
engineering at school as opposed to soft options "meedja studdis".
I don't see how that follows, either. It may entice some latent code monkeys
but I don't see how a finished product like this is going to create a
significant number of budding engineers. That's a tough one, given the level
of integration today.
I agree. I cut my teeth taking apart TTL from failed ICL1900 boards and
sorting the house codes into 74xx chips to test and build new things.
These days with tight multilegged surface mount devices you stand no
chance of getting bits to play with from old scrap boards.
Yep. I started taking apart military stuff to salvage 2N697s and TVs for the
passives.
Post by Martin Brown
Post by k***@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
Post by Martin Brown
Brian Cox and Jim Alkalili have already turned round the decline of the
hard sciences. The former making Physics very "cool" at the moment!
Never heard of them but it looks cool.
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Don McKenzie
http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4748&PN=1
Anyone have insider information that what I am saying is completely off the mark?
Comments?
Of course, If I am off the mark, this will be more free advertising for them. :-)
I expect there isn't a lot of margin but the price isn't completely
impossible either. Just look at the cheapest PC graphics cards.
Amazing.
Post by Martin Brown
If it becomes the new BBC Micro it will engage a new generation of
children in direct connection with real electronics and software at a
level where it can be relatively easily understood and played with.
I don't see how a canned computer interests anyone in electronics. Software,
We will have to wait and see how it plays out. The BBC micro in its day
spawned a whole bunch of DIY add-ons as did the ill fated Sinclair QL.
Those weren't closed and certainly weren't highly integrated. This thing just
looks like an appliance. "Don't look behind the curtain."
AFAIK, the only thing "Closed" about the Pi is the graphics processor
which has to be access through and API to a closed blob.
Post by My Name Is Tzu How Do You Do
Post by Martin Brown
Post by k***@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
maybe. More script kiddies, sure. I don't see the latter as being
particularly useful (in the global economy), though.
The modern PC is just too complicated for children to learn to program
well and interface to DIY external hardware.
I'm not buying it. It can still be done. I don't see that a modern PC does
much, either, though. OTOH, I don't see that this does *anything*, certainly
less than any number of SDKs. Seems like a Broadcom gimmick.
Post by Martin Brown
I just hope that they have got the software programming toolset for this
device right. Since Alan Mycroft is an expert in compiler design and
static code testing there is a sporting chance that it will provide a
useful environment for teaching computer internals at school.
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~am21/
I haven't seen one in the flesh yet. But the pedigree of the trustees of
Raspberry Pi is excellent in terms of computer science skills.
It's *DOOMED*. ;-)
It seems to me that there is a good deal of fear and loathing about the
Pi from entrenched interests.
k***@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
2012-03-06 00:50:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by keithr
Post by My Name Is Tzu How Do You Do
On Mon, 05 Mar 2012 09:02:16 +0000, Martin Brown
Post by Martin Brown
Post by k***@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 10:07:11 +0000, Martin Brown
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Don McKenzie
I may be barking up the wrong tree, but am I one of the few sensing
something may be very wrong with this deal?
I think they expect to sell a lot of them and since the opening day took
down both the major UK electronics suppliers websites they could well be
right. It is priced to allow every schoolchild to have one.
In many areas, every high school student gets a laptop. It hasn't changed
anything outside the school budgets.
The idea in this case stems from academia and the shortage of new
undergraduates interested in the nuts and bolts of computing.
How does highly integrated, and even *closed*, hardware accomplish that?
Post by Martin Brown
Post by k***@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
Post by Martin Brown
I reckon they called in a lot of favours to get it designed for maximum
capability, minimum cost and built for that price. I wish them good luck
with the project. We need to get more youngsters interested in
engineering at school as opposed to soft options "meedja studdis".
I don't see how that follows, either. It may entice some latent code monkeys
but I don't see how a finished product like this is going to create a
significant number of budding engineers. That's a tough one, given the level
of integration today.
I agree. I cut my teeth taking apart TTL from failed ICL1900 boards and
sorting the house codes into 74xx chips to test and build new things.
These days with tight multilegged surface mount devices you stand no
chance of getting bits to play with from old scrap boards.
Yep. I started taking apart military stuff to salvage 2N697s and TVs for the
passives.
Post by Martin Brown
Post by k***@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
Post by Martin Brown
Brian Cox and Jim Alkalili have already turned round the decline of the
hard sciences. The former making Physics very "cool" at the moment!
Never heard of them but it looks cool.
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Don McKenzie
http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4748&PN=1
Anyone have insider information that what I am saying is completely off the mark?
Comments?
Of course, If I am off the mark, this will be more free advertising for them. :-)
I expect there isn't a lot of margin but the price isn't completely
impossible either. Just look at the cheapest PC graphics cards.
Amazing.
Post by Martin Brown
If it becomes the new BBC Micro it will engage a new generation of
children in direct connection with real electronics and software at a
level where it can be relatively easily understood and played with.
I don't see how a canned computer interests anyone in electronics. Software,
We will have to wait and see how it plays out. The BBC micro in its day
spawned a whole bunch of DIY add-ons as did the ill fated Sinclair QL.
Those weren't closed and certainly weren't highly integrated. This thing just
looks like an appliance. "Don't look behind the curtain."
AFAIK, the only thing "Closed" about the Pi is the graphics processor
which has to be access through and API to a closed blob.
I admit that I haven't studied this thing in detail (I do hardware not
software, if I can help it) but it seemed to me that the whole middleware
slice was closed, as well as the hardware platform itself. Specs? What
specs?
Post by keithr
Post by My Name Is Tzu How Do You Do
Post by Martin Brown
Post by k***@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
maybe. More script kiddies, sure. I don't see the latter as being
particularly useful (in the global economy), though.
The modern PC is just too complicated for children to learn to program
well and interface to DIY external hardware.
I'm not buying it. It can still be done. I don't see that a modern PC does
much, either, though. OTOH, I don't see that this does *anything*, certainly
less than any number of SDKs. Seems like a Broadcom gimmick.
Post by Martin Brown
I just hope that they have got the software programming toolset for this
device right. Since Alan Mycroft is an expert in compiler design and
static code testing there is a sporting chance that it will provide a
useful environment for teaching computer internals at school.
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~am21/
I haven't seen one in the flesh yet. But the pedigree of the trustees of
Raspberry Pi is excellent in terms of computer science skills.
It's *DOOMED*. ;-)
It seems to me that there is a good deal of fear and loathing about the
Pi from entrenched interests.
Me? Fear and loathing? No, disappointment. I'd *love* to see something that
would get kids interested in electronics again. I'm close enough to
retirement that they're not a threat to my lunch (which has benefited
immensely from the lack of kids' hardware skills). ;-)
Paul
2012-03-04 16:54:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Brown
Post by Don McKenzie
Is the Raspberry Pi real at that price?
http://www.raspberrypi.org/
http://twitter.com/#!/raspberry_pi
I can't help but think when you sell 10K pieces of an item at bargain
basement prices, (and in a single day), and in advance of having the
products, that there may be something very wrong.
They have entered into licensed manufacture partnerships with two
British companies, Premier Farnell and RS Components.
That means there has to be a dealer margin. If you can retail it at $25,
then how much did it cost wholesale?
It is retailing at £25 ($40). There is another rival development single
board of similar size and lesser capability for about £10 (but much less
sophisticated). At least part of the intention is educational to make
computing and electronics engineering more interesting to school
children.
Yes and it may succeed in part...
Post by Martin Brown
The existing UK syllabus churns out MickeySoft Office drone
users with no clue at all how PCs and software work.
Which UK syllabus are you on about?

I help my partner who TEACHES the syllabus for ICT and computing to
11 - 18 year olds for ICT and Computing.

The syllabus for ICT includes many other aspects from animation and
image manipulation to differences between serial and parallel busses,
from 11 to 14 they often use Scratch to learn logic fundamentals and
other aspects.

Many inexperienced teachers may follow the MS Office route as they know
no different or it is foisted on them by management or IT services or
Education Authority. Know of some schools that insist on OpenOffice
so kids can use it on home sysems as well for minimal cost.

When it comes to computing at A level (17-18 year olds), I know in one
school they actually spend a year with command line and GUi python, then
do PHP, SQL databases and many other aspects. Even learn about logic
gates, hamming codes, A/D, D/A and Nyquist.
Post by Martin Brown
In a reference back
to the BBC Micro they have even called them Models A and B.
Post by Don McKenzie
I may be barking up the wrong tree, but am I one of the few sensing
something may be very wrong with this deal?
I think they expect to sell a lot of them and since the opening day took
down both the major UK electronics suppliers websites they could well be
right. It is priced to allow every schoolchild to have one.
I reckon they called in a lot of favours to get it designed for maximum
capability, minimum cost and built for that price. I wish them good luck
with the project. We need to get more youngsters interested in
engineering at school as opposed to soft options "meedja studdis".
Media Studies is often taken by the masses of kids in days gone by would
not even consider doing A levels but now do. For them it is an
ACHEIVABLE subject where as ICT and Computing is not, let alone Maths or
sciences.

There are not so many shit shovelling jobs about these days, so they
have to get qualifications. Won't be long before you need a degree to
considered competent to use a shovel.
--
Paul Carpenter | ***@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk
<http://www.pcserviceselectronics.co.uk/> PC Services
<http://www.pcserviceselectronics.co.uk/fonts/> Timing Diagram Font
<http://www.gnuh8.org.uk/> GNU H8 - compiler & Renesas H8/H8S/H8 Tiny
<http://www.badweb.org.uk/> For those web sites you hate
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